Pinto

The next time you are in for a service tell the service advisor that you have 78.08 % nitrogen in your tires now and have not seen an increase in your mileage. The 78.08 is the nitrogen content in air. See what he says.
A tire dealer here claims that the nitrogen will not bleed out of the tire as fast as air and is not affected by temperature as much, thus your tires will be correctly inflated for a longer period of time.
My response to him was that I already changed my air in my tires in the late spring and early winter so that air is already summer and winter air. ( And no I was not putting nitrogen in the tires for $50.00 extra.) He then got quite upset with me and did not asked again when I replaced the tires on my other vehicle.

On the wheel alignment, I feel the same as you, in that if it is not broken, don't try to fix it.

Now remember: It is his job to get as much money out of your pocket and into their till as possible and yours to keep that money. LOL

Brake service: I have been spraying (high pressure wash) the calipers real well everytime I wash the car and have now gone about 1 1/2 years with no problems. (Touch wood)
I believe it is helping in that it washes any dirt or brake material dust from the ends of the pads where they seem to bind up.

Have fun with your service manager with the nitrogen!!!!

Glen

 

Regular wheel alignment is money well spent. You will gain extra miles with reduced tyre wear and the driving feel is better.

Front and rear wheels need to be aligned for a SF.

 

QUOTE (dunmovin @ May 27 2010, 03:34 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=327044

A tire dealer here claims that the nitrogen will not bleed out of the tire as fast as air and is not affected by temperature as much, thus your tires will be correctly inflated for a longer period of time.

I had service manager with a load of nitrogen to sell (and hence, a dog in the fight) try to make these same sorts of claims. That business about "affected by temperature" was a real hoot. We had a pretty nasty knock down / drag out argument in front of his customers about something called Boyle's Law. PV = nrT. Pressure and Volume on one side, Temperature on the other. Applies just as well to nitrogen as oxygen, CO2 and whatever else might be in my tires. He kept insisting, and I guess I should have kept my mouth shut, but told him that if he'd bothered to take a single chemistry course, even in high school, he'd know better than to believe the crap that the suppliers of the nitrogen systems were telling him. I then asked if he'd actually graduated from high school (oops).

 

QUOTE (murraycod @ May 27 2010, 06:39 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=327091

Front and rear wheels need to be aligned for a SF.

Exactly my point!

 

I had an 05 Santa Fe with 40,000 miles. I did not have an alinement done since it was new.
I had to replace 3 tires as it was out of alinement and the tires cupped. Made a lot of noise and vibration.
I will keep better tabs on the alinement from now on.

Bruce

 

Wouldn't filling the tires with helium make the car lighter and therefore increase fuel economy?

I hear the government is still maintaining a helium storage facility in Texas at great taxpayer expense. Maybe this could be a good use for it!

Or even better, how about Flubber gas? I'd love to be able to fly like Fred McMurray's Model T!

 

QUOTE (IndyMGA @ May 27 2010, 07:10 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=327171

Or even better, how about Flubber gas? I'd love to be able to fly like Fred McMurray's Model T!

Flubber gas was so popular in the 70's, it may be hard to find! Doesn't the Disney Corp re-introduce their supplies every decade or so? Might be available in 2010! :thumbsup:

 

Now you guys have gone and done it. By the end of the week dealers everywhere will be offering Flubber gas, probably as a package deal with stem lube and flux capacitor inspection. :clap:

 

As an ex Performance Tire Specialist for Goodyear, (in a former life) the litmus test for alignment is tire wear and driveability (sp?). If the tires are wearing smooth and evenly, and it doesn't pull, and the steering wheel is straight, there is no mechanical reason to align the vehicle. If any of these symptoms are noted, well then yes, I would have the alignment checked. Be careful though - many a tech will turn the wheel slightly so the initial read shows positive toe on one wheel and negative on the other, both out of spec! Also remember that castor, which is the primary factor in alignment pull, is not adjustable on most cars (unless you drill out strut tops, which most folks don't do). Bottom line, rub your hands over your tire tread regularly and you'll know if you need an alignment! Save your $$$. (but do rotate your tires regularly! Every 3000-5000 is good!)

As for the nitrogen, I love the 78% comment! Ha! SO true!! And besides, most modern quality tires have a special rubber compound in the liner to prevent premature air loss. BTW - I'm now in the controls business for natural gas, and Canderson, you're right on with Boyle's law! Ha!

Regarding the brakes, if they are worn down, replace em! if not, don't! Brakes don't expire, like milk or something, they just wear, like they are supposed to!

 

QUOTE (AlaskanAWD @ May 27 2010, 10:53 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=327181

Flubber gas was so popular in the 70's, it may be hard to find!

Funny - my high school chem teacher called the "ideal gas" "Goober Gas". What this guy was doing teaching high school was a mystery for the longest time. He finally fessed up that he'd taught college chemistry, but found that the students he was getting that had supposedly taken chemistry in high school could barely balance an equation. I think he was nuts, but he felt obligated to regroup and try to improve our lot before we graduated from high school. Dedication, eh? Sure learned a lot from that guy in two years.

 

QUOTE (canderson @ May 27 2010, 07:10 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=327098

I had service manager with a load of nitrogen to sell (and hence, a dog in the fight) try to make these same sorts of claims. That business about "affected by temperature" was a real hoot. We had a pretty nasty knock down / drag out argument in front of his customers about something called Boyle's Law. PV = nrT. Pressure and Volume on one side, Temperature on the other. Applies just as well to nitrogen as oxygen, CO2 and whatever else might be in my tires. He kept insisting, and I guess I should have kept my mouth shut, but told him that if he'd bothered to take a single chemistry course, even in high school, he'd know better than to believe the crap that the suppliers of the nitrogen systems were telling him. I then asked if he'd actually graduated from high school (oops).

Well done canderson, as a high school chemistry teacher myself I love to see our work in action. One small point PV=nRT is known as the general gas equation. It is actually a combination of 3 gas laws , Boyle's law being the one explaining Pressure and Volume. keep up the good work " A- "

 

QUOTE (wingas @ May 29 2010, 04:55 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=327593

Well done canderson, as a high school chemistry teacher myself I love to see our work in action. One small point PV=nRT is known as the general gas equation. It is actually a combination of 3 gas laws , Boyle's law being the one explaining Pressure and Volume. keep up the good work " A- "

Understood - Boyle only managed the PV=T, and the whole thing is referred to as the "ideal gas law", but for our purposes at the dealer, that piece was sufficient. I really don't think the dealer service manager knew who Avogadro was, either. Moles are what you find in your back yard, right?

 

QUOTE (canderson @ May 29 2010, 10:24 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=327619

Understood - Boyle only managed the PV=T, and the whole thing is referred to as the "ideal gas law", but for our purposes at the dealer, that piece was sufficient. I really don't think the dealer service manager knew who Avogadro was, either. Moles are what you find in your back yard, right?

This is fantastic Canderson , we can get the whole forum looking up gas equations to bury the issue of nitrogen in tires. For our purposes any gas which is is inert, and that will be contained within the tire will perform exactly the same as any other gas at the same temperature and pressure. Fill your tires with Argon or perhaps Neon. At your next service insist on a blend of N2 and O2 in 80:20 ratio, if they don't have any of this new formula gas, especially devised for inflating tires, find someone else who is committed to providing the best gas for your ride at the right price.

 

QUOTE (wingas @ May 29 2010, 05:01 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=327718

At your next service insist on a blend of N2 and O2 in 80:20 ratio, if they don't have any of this new formula gas, especially devised for inflating tires, find someone else who is committed to providing the best gas for your ride at the right price.

Yeah, gimme some of that! Sounds like great stuff. You could probably even breathe it! :thumbsup:

Of course, there's the 2nd argument related to permeation. Getting into the concept of gas permeability and the "kinetic diameter" of O2 and N2 is way past where we should be going here, but suffice it to say, there's not a whopping difference between the two (about a 6.7% edge to nitrogen if you're looking at gas viscosity - not much over the course of time between pressure checks, and already represents ~78% of the stuff we normally fill our tires with). And THAT assumes that either one can readily sneak through the polymer chains of solid rubber and the other goo they're putting into the insides of tires these days. So I don't buy into the "it doesn't escape as fast" argument, either. You'd have to wait a LONG time between pressure checks to detect the difference (months).

Last, I've heard the old "but the Air Force uses it; it must be better!" argument. The struts and hydraulic accumulators' pre-charge is done with bottled N2. Why carry around a separate cylinder of compressed air or a compressor when you've already got that in hand? It was handy.

 

I can't be bothered to do my own research on the subject (especially now that I am single and have to work to pay the rent :innocent: ) but there must be some logic to the entire argument. I can recall my days as a pilot when all aircraft tires were filled with N2. Don't recall why though.
Don't get me wrong, I've had the sales pitched to me too and just walked away while the mechanic was still talking. Up here though where you need a freezer to keep your food warm, a lot of people buy into it.

 

High pressure aircraft tires are serviced with Nitrogen because:
1. Contains no moisture
2. Contains no oxygen
3. Contains no oil
3. Stable at extremes of temperature (aka 160+ on the ground, -30+ at altitude)

I'm sure there are other reasons, but these are the reasons we were given for using it.
Keep in mind aircraft tires are serviced at several hundred PSI, not the ~35 psi the average car tire is.

It has nothing to do with convenience, as struts and hydraulics are rarely (if ever) serviced near the same place tires are.

 

The thread so far has focussed on the physics and possible flim-flam involved.

If you look at the chemistry the presence of oxygen leads to oxidation. Particularly any O3 would cause decay of rubber and plastics.

Having said this, I am not aware of my tyres ever failing because of this. Similarly, not from the minute amount of oil introduced from the air compression process.

However, I can understand that for aircraft and F1 racing cars they use nitrogen to give it their best shot.

 

QUOTE (pen411 @ May 31 2010, 10:19 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=328103

High pressure aircraft tires are serviced with Nitrogen because:
1. Contains no moisture - does, but only a little - same as normal air if processed with a dryer stage or two. Do the dealer machines do so?
2. Contains no oxygen - so?
3. Contains no oil - that's just ugly. Should be filtered with the moisture, period. What the devil is compressor oil doing in the tank to begin with???
3. Stable at extremes of temperature (aka 160+ on the ground, -30+ at altitude) - curious... stable how exactly?

 

Nitrogen use in auto tires to me is just a flavor of the decade. It seems that all businesses come up with the new flavor, mouse trap or snake oil to increase their income.
They do this in my opinion by feeding on the general public that rely on what they think is a professional in that business and believe them.

Just a few flavors over the last decades: Take STP in the 70's with their STP oil additive for controlling oil consumption at an absorbant price. It is commonly known in the industry as VII which means viscosity index improver.
GM, Ford and Chrysler all had this product for sale if you asked for it and it was 1/2 the price. Add 1 can STP\VII to 4 quarts of 10 W oil and you now have the equivilant of 30 W oil. Add to 30 W oil and you have 50W oil. You could always buy these weights of oil far cheaper than adding STP. When people caught on to the game of STP what happened to their sales.

Same for Teflon oil additive like Slick 50 at the absorbant price. The amount of Teflon in a can of slick 50 was about the same amount as you would get on the end of a toothpick if you scouped it up from a vile of powered teflon. You would not get any of the teflon unless you shook the **** out of the can and then if you had a good oil filter it trapped the teflon anyways. I purchased powered teflon and used it Hydralic system on excavators but would pull the filters for a couple of days to give the teflon a chance to adhere to all the parts and then reinstall the filters.

Another flavor\mousetrap was the inline gas magnetic device that looked like an in line filter. The sales pitch for this mouse trap was that the magnet would get all the gas molecules lined up for better vaporization and mixing so this would give you better gas mileage. And people actually purchased these believing they would get better gas mileage and they probably did because they wanted to get better mileage. But after a few months they forgot all about their newly purchased mouse trap and the mileage was back to normal.


Just a few of the flavors that people have fallen for in the past and the nitrogen will go the same way as the Doo Doo bird in a few years in my opinion.

All air compressors loose a little oil into the air stream but will be caught in the tank and bled off with the accumulated moisture. I do not know of any tire shops that use air dryers for their air, as they re quite costly to operate.

 

And the #1 reason to use Nitrogen in aircraft tires...

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance...33;OpenDocument

That ruling passed, BTW, and is now required.

I'm not advocating Nitrogen for car tires, I think it's a waste, but there ARE reasons it's used in tires.

 

QUOTE (dunmovin @ Jun 1 2010, 01:16 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=328354

I do not know of any tire shops that use air dryers for their air, as they re quite costly to operate.

FWIW, I don't either -- was comparing it to tanks of compressed nitrogen used by the USAF. Moisture and oil would likely have been removed before it got to the tank. I have yet to "inspect" one of these nitrogen generation systems being used in-house by a dealer or tire shop to see if they're even bothering to produce a clean, dry product. There are several outfits making and selling this hardware, and designs may well be different.

Gotta really love the primary statement of benefit from the folks at NitroFill. Oxygen is the big bad oxidizer of your rubber. Odd that protection is only needed from one side, and UV (a particular pain here in Colorado) is never mentioned as a primary culprit in the breakdown of tire rubber. Reading the FAQs on their web page is quite illuminating. They talk about permeability as a source of pressure loss, and then turn around and talk about temperature. They explain how they think they avoid the permeability issue, but are VERY careful NOT to make any claims at all regarding temperature. Well, the clever boys in their legal dept at least got that bit right.

At least Premier is up front with potential system buyers (if not their end users). Profitable. Yup.
<div align='center'>Premier Nitrogen is! Better yet, we're dedicated to helping you find the perfect solution for your operation. Call one of our knowledgeable technical people today, your will see we have the expertise to design and implement the right equipment so you can share in the profitable Nitrogen Tire Inflation business. Dial us right now... 1(800) 266-4497

 

QUOTE (murraycod @ May 31 2010, 03:32 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=328215

The thread so far has focussed on the physics and possible flim-flam involved.

If you look at the chemistry the presence of oxygen leads to oxidation. Particularly any O3 would cause decay of rubber and plastics.

Having said this, I am not aware of my tyres ever failing because of this. Similarly, not from the minute amount of oil introduced from the air compression process.

However, I can understand that for aircraft and F1 racing cars they use nitrogen to give it their best shot.

Very good point but honestly, when was the last time anybody here saw a tire rot from the inside out? Every car I've ever seen that was abandoned or parked to rot always had the tires falling apart due to external UV exposure. My point is your tires will fall apart on the outside by drying out and cracking long before any fatal damage occurs on the inside.

 

QUOTE (lovemysantafe @ Jun 1 2010, 11:56 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=328703

Very good point but honestly, when was the last time anybody here saw a tire rot from the inside out? Every car I've ever seen that was abandoned or parked to rot always had the tires falling apart due to external UV exposure. My point is your tires will fall apart on the outside by drying out and cracking long before any fatal damage occurs on the inside.

During my driving history I have had a couple of sudden blowouts that occurred for no apparent reason, in good sound tyres. Who knows if they had deteriorated because of the factors discussed here. I had always assumed that it was due to hidden mechanical damage caused by hitting a kerb or such, but long forgotten by the time the tyre failed.

 

QUOTE (murraycod @ Jun 1 2010, 11:49 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=328722

During my driving history I have had a couple of sudden blowouts that occurred for no apparent reason, in good sound tyres. Who knows if they had deteriorated because of the factors discussed here. I had always assumed that it was due to hidden mechanical damage caused by hitting a kerb or such, but long forgotten by the time the tyre failed.

True. It could also be caused by a defect in the construction of the tire.

 

QUOTE (murraycod @ Jun 2 2010, 12:49 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=328722

During my driving history I have had a couple of sudden blowouts that occurred for no apparent reason, in good sound tyres. Who knows if they had deteriorated because of the factors discussed here.

That kind of damage would also be evident from the outside, with cracking and checking of the sidewall area of the tire. Rubber 'oxidation' is a slow process. Most plastics and rubbers will lose key plasticizer components due to migration over time and just "dry out" and become brittle (with shortening of the polymer chains). Heat and UV will accelerate this. There's a good reason for covering tires that will have direct sun exposure for long periods and will have low mileage (e.g., what you'd call "caravan" tires). You don't want them dead from sunburn before the tread wears out!