Good post Don67. I was sceptical of buying a Hyundai for my wife last summer, but from what I read by actual consumers and forums like this, I decided to give it a go. Our Santa Fe has been excellent so far and the dealer is also top notch! Good to see Hyundai getting the recognition it deserves. I was one of the people surveyed by JD Power a few months back.

 

Nice.... :thumbsup:

 

Hyundai has risen to #4 out of 37 car brands in overall initial quality, according to JD Power. This is the first time it has ranked ahead of Toyota, Honda and Nissan at the same time, in fact it is now the #1 non-luxury brand. This certainly reflects my experience so far.

Nice job Hyundai!

While it is a good thing, it is for initial quality which is way too soon to measure. Also, people who purchase Toyota and Honda expect perfection right out the door. People who purchase Hyundai will settle for less because they saved money.

 

Unfortunately the Santa Fe hasn't faired very well in the Which Magazine survey.

Features in the 10 least reliable cars!!!!

 

QUOTE (DJOR @ Jul 24 2009, 12:57 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=251092

Unfortunately the Santa Fe hasn't faired very well in the Which Magazine survey.

Features in the 10 least reliable cars!!!!

I read a lot more issues with the 07's than I do the 08's.. so who really knows!

 

QUOTE (DJOR @ Jul 24 2009, 10:57 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=251092

Unfortunately the Santa Fe hasn't faired very well in the Which Magazine survey.

Features in the 10 least reliable cars!!!!

Since this article doesn't include model year information in their reporting, any conclusions about models that have undergone major revamps (e.g., the 2006/2007 changes to the Santa Fe) are useless.

Further, there's no such thing as "THE" Santa Fe factory, and factory quality has a lot to do with the outcome. This is a UK report, and their units don't come from our plant down in Dixie.

At best, the article can be said to claim that some (unspecified) years of Santa Fe vehicles, made in Ulsan KR, have encountered an above average service rate.

It says nothing about 2007 vehicles and beyond that come from Montgomery, Alabama.

 

With any survey it's important to consider what questions were asked, and of whom.

 

QUOTE (DJOR @ Jul 24 2009, 11:57 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=251092

Unfortunately the Santa Fe hasn't faired very well in the Which Magazine survey.

Features in the 10 least reliable cars!!!!

The European market still has not accepted asian cars as much as North America has. This applies to the Japanese as well. Toyota/Nissan/Honda has had little success competing in the luxury segment there, yet here in NA, buyers have fully embraced Lexus/Infiniti/Acura since their introduction. Just the oppososite, many European brands tucked tail and ran from the NA market back in the late 80's, after been shunned by Yankees and Canucks alike.

 

QUOTE (mkaresh @ Jul 24 2009, 05:33 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=251155

With any survey it's important to consider what questions were asked, and of whom.

Be that as it may, but JD Powers has the brand recognition, market dominance, and general street cred. They don't earn that over the years by being consistently wrong.

 

QUOTE (Volfy @ Jul 24 2009, 07:35 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=251165

Be that as it may, but JD Powers has the brand recognition, market dominance, and general street cred. They don't earn that over the years by being consistently wrong.

Much of this came from heavy use in advertising. But, at any rate, I was responding to the post about the Which Car? survey.

And the reason to examine the question isn't to determine whether the results are right or wrong--an overly simple way to look at such things--but to find out what they are right about. People frequently read more things or different things into results than are actually there.

For example, if you assume that a low J.D. Power IQS score means that a model is unreliable, you could be wrong. The IQS measures more things than reliability. A low score on these other things can result in a low IQS score, even if the car is reliable. In this case, the IQS score would not be wrong, but your interpretation of it would be.

 

QUOTE (mkaresh @ Jul 24 2009, 07:09 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=251173

Much of this came from heavy use in advertising. But, at any rate, I was responding to the post about the Which Car? survey.

And the reason to examine the question isn't to determine whether the results are right or wrong--an overly simple way to look at such things--but to find out what they are right about. People frequently read more things or different things into results than are actually there.

For example, if you assume that a low J.D. Power IQS score means that a model is unreliable, you could be wrong. The IQS measures more things than reliability. A low score on these other things can result in a low IQS score, even if the car is reliable. In this case, the IQS score would not be wrong, but your interpretation of it would be.

If you assume that a low J.D. Power IQS score means that a model is unreliable, you need to go back and take English 101. Initial Quality means just that - quality of the vehicle as perceived by the owners in the initial stage of ownership.

mkaresh, your accusing JDP for gaining business by advertizing just opened yourself for cross examination. My impression of most - if not all - of your posts amounts to thinly-veiled self-promotion of your own website. That I find to be, at best, in rather poor taste. At worst, it's in violation of forum posting rules. If you want to promote your business here - feel free to advertise and or sponsor. Then - and only then - might I click on your website.

My apologies if you take offense to this. I very much appreciate the opportunity this website gives me to swap notes and jab ribs with fellow Hyundai owners. For that reason, I do check out their advertizers when considering potential purchases. I believe they deserve your support as well.

 

I posted about my research here with formal permission from the forum owner. In return, I placed links to this forum on my own site. Then this forum was bought out, and I was asked not to post about my research here by the new owners. So I stopped. Then I received permission from the new owner, so I started posting again. Then people like you complained, so they recently asked me to stop posting about my research here, and I have. My posts in this thread did not mention my research--you did.

I see absolutely nothing wrong about posting her given that I had permission to do so. Hundreds of other forum members did not share your opinions. You're welcome to yours, but that doesn't mean you opinion is the only valid opinion. I'm okay with letting this drop here--I have no desire to make this thread about my research.

The snide comment on learning to read--look in the mirror.

So I said "low" when I should have said "poor." I think people knew what I meant. You, on the other hand, have changed the meaning of what I wrote. J.D. Power didn't gain recognition by paying for advertising. They very smartly set up a system where manufacturers used their ratings in ads paid for by these manufacturers, not by J.D. Power itself. Nothing wrong with that--the system they set up was pure genius from a business standpoint. The information they provide simply doesn't serve car owners all that well, because they save the good stuff for OEM clients.

 

QUOTE (canderson @ Jul 24 2009, 05:23 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=251150

Since this article doesn't include model year information in their reporting, any conclusions about models that have undergone major revamps (e.g., the 2006/2007 changes to the Santa Fe) are useless.

Looks like it's 2006 models onward. see another article from the Daily Telegraph.

As to the detail of what was surveyed, I have no idea. I think you have to be a suscriber to Which Magazine to see it. I entirely agree that any survey only has relevance if the questions and survey group are relevant and representative.
Interestingly, I have a Honda Accord (top of that survey) as well as a Santa Fe. The Honda is a terrific car with no problems of any kind, excellent dealership and just a great car to drive.
I've had the Santa Fe for around 5 moths and have done around 10,000 miles. So far no problems (cross fingers), dealership seem helpful and I love driving it.

Just posted the Which Survey article to give some balance.

 

Even with the lowest-ranked cars in the Which Car? survey, only one in four owners reported problems.

While this suggests under-reporting, which could be a result of how the survey was worded--my own data suggest that the average for all cars in their first year is about half a repair per car--it is the case that with almost any car today your odds of having no problems in the first year are pretty good. Put another way, having no problems with a low-ranked model doesn't contradict the survey results. If you had a fleet of 20 cars of a low-ranked model, and none of them had problems, that would be a different story.

Many people, when they see the results of surveys like these, still think that the top scorers have no problems while the bottom scorers have lots of problems. In reality, the we're generally talking about the odds of a single problem per year in the first couple of years. The differences between cars are usually smaller than many people think they are.

 

QUOTE (mkaresh @ Jul 25 2009, 12:46 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=251233

I have no desire to make this thread about my research.

I find this very difficult to believe.

Are you not trying to discrediting JPD? Your previous posts here clearly aimed to do just that. Putting down your competitor to make yourself look better is in poor taste. It degrades your credibility, rather than enhance it.

Other than my posts in this thread, I have not contacted the forum admins to complain about your posts. They are free to make up their own opinions as to what is in the best interest of their forums. I do find your advertising tactics here annoying. Posts are supposedly to be non-commercial, and yours are clearly about your own website - whether you deny it with a straight face or not.

My opinions are absolutely my own. So are yours. The difference is: I'm posting here to help fellow Hyundai owners. You are here to pump your business. I have read enough of your posts to know. Too much of your kind here, and these forums become worthless infomercials. I've seen it happen at other websites. Many forums have learn to be very vigilant about this. You're lucky they let you slide for this long.

 

Problem is, what you read is at best loosely related to what I have written.

What have I posted here that would "discredit" J.D. Power? That I have said it's important to note the questions asked when interpreting the results of a survey? That I have said that the results of surveys are frequently misinterpreted?

You talk about your opinions being merely an opinion, but you act as if what you say applies to everyone and should be treated as fact. Thousands of people, including the founder of this forum, have a different opinion than you do. But, sadly, a vocal few can ruin things for the rest, often thinking they're acting in the "common good" in the process. Such is the way of the world.

 

I believe that "initial quality" does predict longer-term reliability.

I have owned a dozen new cars over the years, and in every case the number of defects noted during the first 90 days was a very good predictor of reliability over the next 3-5 years. Vehicles which made it to their first oil change without any squeaks, rattles, adjustments or malfunctions were generally trouble-free for the rest of the warranty period. Those which quickly had a warranty claim generally continued to have them over time.

 

I believe that "initial quality" does predict longer-term reliability.

You may be right, but, I also own a '99 Ford Explorer, and had many many trips to the dealer during the first year. 10 years on, I can say quite happily say it is one of the best vehicles I have owned.

That being said..I also have an "08 Santa Fe Limited that has not seen the inside of the dealer other than for oil etc during the first year.... So lets hope the reverse doesn't come true eh?


I like the Initial Quality of mine.... Best so far....of any new vehicle I have owned..

 

I am unable to generalize from "initial" to "overall" experience of problems. I had a few nits with each of my LHS and two 300M models prior to the Santa Fe that were taken care of in the first month or two, and each of these treated me exceptionally well after that. My current '04 300M has nearly 150K miles on it, and apart from the regular maintenance of timing belt and water pump at 100K miles, have never put more than brakes and tires on it. That's right -- not even a battery or struts yet, and the factory brakes even held out for 60K. It started out with some minor glitches. I can only hope that my Santa Fe (no issues in the first 3-1/2 months) is as reliable.

 

J.D. Power has stated that there's a correlation, but I've never seen an actual number.

I have seen many different patterns. With some cars, there are a few bugs early on, then nothing else. Other start out with few problems, then have more and more as time goes on. Still others start low and stay low, or start high and stay high.

In other words, all four combinations are possible.

It's not hard to think of explanations for each.

Long-term reliability is a function of thorough engineering and testing.

Initial quality can follow from the same--or from thorough inspections at the plant and/or dealer.

With European cars I often see few problems initially, then more later. My hypothesis: thorough inspection catches many problems before delivery, but can't catch those that might happen a year or more down the road.

Conversely, the engineering might be generally thorough, but a couple of problems slip through. In this case, the cars experience these problems early on, then few others.

 

All this analysis is making my head hurt.... stop confusing me with the facts! :wacko:

Admittedly my conclusion about positive correlation is based on personal anecdotal experience. But my streak continues with the Santa Fe... solid performance during the first 90 days has lasted 18 months and counting. Not a single warranty claim yet. Touch wood.

 

Take two aspirin and if the pain persists...

Might be interesting to find out how common each pattern is. I don't doubt that it is most common for long-term reliability to track with initial quality. You don't mention which cars you're basing this on. As I mentioned earlier, it seems most common with German cars to have few initial problems early on, yet more down the road.

 

QUOTE (mkaresh @ Jul 25 2009, 04:52 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=251327

Problem is, what you read is at best loosely related to what I have written.

What have I posted here that would "discredit" J.D. Power? That I have said it's important to note the questions asked when interpreting the results of a survey? That I have said that the results of surveys are frequently misinterpreted?

I see you went back and edited every single one of you previous posts. I stand by what I said.
QUOTE (mkaresh @ Jul 25 2009, 04:52 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=251327

You talk about your opinions being merely an opinion, but you act as if what you say applies to everyone and should be treated as fact. Thousands of people, including the founder of this forum, have a different opinion than you do. But, sadly, a vocal few can ruin things for the rest, often thinking they're acting in the "common good" in the process. Such is the way of the world.

Very nice for you to think more of my postings that they are. The only thing I may be ruining is your modus operandi, which is exactly this: Forum Posting Advertising Without Spamming.

 

QUOTE (Volfy @ Jul 27 2009, 10:37 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=251724

The only thing I may be ruining is your modus operandi, w

I mentioned this to one of the moderators, and it turns out that he has special dispensation for soliciting traffic to his web site.

 

QUOTE (canderson @ Jul 27 2009, 10:35 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=251742

I mentioned this to one of the moderators, and it turns out that he has special dispensation for soliciting traffic to his web site.

Yep...doesn't keep it from getting annoying fairly quickly.