What is needed is more class-action lawsuits.

We have a 2016 Santa Fe which has turned out to be a nice car. No problems yet - knock on wood.

 

I havent posted for awhile but I felt it was time to write about my experience.

This past week we went to a destination wedding. While there we rented a car at the airport. To my surprise they gave us a 2017 Tucson SE. What I found even surprised me more. At first I was like this thing is a dog but man the tranny is perfect. Then I switched it into sport mode and was even more surprised. It was zippy like our turbo but omg the 6 speed tranny is 10 times better then our turbo. No shutters or pauses with very smooth shifts both up and down. I looked at my wife and said, they should have used this transmission in your car just for the drivability of it. We also experienced similar mpg as the limited. It was actually fun to drive.

After we landed back home we jumped in our Tucson to drive back to our house from the airport. As soon as I stepped on the accelerator shutter shutter shutter grab go. I immediately got a pissed off look on my face. I really hate this transmission.

 

Hyundai realizes the problem and yet does nothing about it.

 

Most of the problems I've read about are on the 16s; mine is a 17 built in December and not very smooth at times. The units I test drove prior to purchase were the same so I'm pretty sure it's a design issue. Or else that a dct requires a different kind of driving. What's the best way to accelerate from a stop without jerking or hesitating? Also I've noticed that if I do a harder acceleration and let off the gas it'll hold the rpms and not let the engine slow down for several seconds. Am I doing something wrong? I feel like it's me.

 

Hi,

Ditto on the 6spd auto - it may be old school but it's been flawless - I just take over when I feel it wastes fuel getting to higher gears. I'm new to Hyundai and really want my adopted brand to do well everywhere. This DCT thing is by far the biggest issue I've seen in the new /-/ cars. Wondering just how far and (world)wide and across how many models this issue occurred? Is it truly fixed by the updates, requiring just correct installation by dealers and re-learned usage by drivers? Sometimes in heavy traffic I imagine forcing myself out of the ingrained habit of crawling. I'm not sure I wouldn't burn a clutch or three in the process :/
Hyundai seems committed to the option - given the prominence of this thread/issue surely they can't be still pushing this tranny on new model lines as well unless it really works...can they?

 

It's about Fuel Economy people, and traditional torque converter automatics are the least efficient. Easily losing 5-10% drivetrain efficiency from the torque converter. These will be going obsolete by 2025 when manufacturers really have to clamp down on fuel economy targets.

Chrysler adopted a ZF designed 9 speed transmission which uses a dog clutch to change from gears 4-5 and 8-9 I believe. This has caused all kinds of uproar because it can sometimes have a 2-3 second pause before the dog clutch can synchronize and engage. At least it has a torque converter for comfort. But having 9 ratio's helps with fuel economy and getting the torque converter into lockup much earlier. Not sure how much longer they'll keep this design, I think they'll switch to something else eventually.

Ford, VW, and Hyundai are doing the DCT transmissions as we all know. But some have wet or dry clutches.

Nissan, Subaru, Honda are using CVT transmissions. But some have torque converter and others have a computer controlled clutch like the DCT, both wet and dry clutch.

I think the CVT with simulated gear ratios and a wet clutch would give you the best driveability with maximum fuel economy, but wet clutch systems add more complexity, weight and size. Honda's 1st and 2nd generation CVT's used a dry clutch system, which had complaints of shuddering. So Honda switched to a torque converter CVT for their 3rd generation. But I think if they have to hit fuel economy targets again, they'll switch back to a clutched CVT again, perhaps a wet clutch.

 

I agree with your overview of the direction of the auto industry and we have discussed this in the past but it still does not excuse the issues we have experienced with this DCT all for 1 or 2 mpg better. While its good to target better mpg there could be other ways to achieve these targets without creating a poorly performing transmission. Weigh reductions using lighter materials is just one way. The Tucson Limited AWD weighs in around 3700 pounds. Shes a bit on the heavy side.

I own a 2015 Dodge Charger Scat pack and shes a heavy beast at 4400 pounds. The ZF 8 in this car is fantastic. Best tranny Ive ever owned. With MDS fuel management I can get 27-28 while cruising on the highway at 70 mph with 485 hp under the hood. Now I only average 18 mpg overall as I drive it hard. Point being it has a great tranny that can achieve high mpg in a big heavy car if driven very conservatively.

One point I will make again is that the old school S6 speed in the 2017 Tucson I rented did manage 30 mpg. Even though it was the FWD SE I preferred the driving experience so much more then our turbo Limited. It felt just as fast in normal driving in Sport mode.

The difference between the S6 and AM7 in the fwd version Tucson is 1 mpg combined. In the AWD versions it's 2 mpg. This is where I get a little upset with the AM7. It's really not any better in achieving a substantial amount of fuel savings compared to the S6. Especially considering all the issues surrounding it's livability. Why not build a S7,8 or 9 that can get better mpg without compromising drivability?

Ok rant over. JMO.

 

Good post. Many people aren't aware of what's driving all this (mis)innovation: CAFE, CAFE, CAFE.

 

Personally, were it feasible for me I'd just leapfrog it all. EV/direct drive seems the logical evolution of wheeled transport efficiency.

 

Lithium ION still doesn't have the power density of gasoline. Easier to do in cars, but has a much shorter range in SUV's. Most people don't factor in the weight of batteries. Currently for the weight of Lithium ION packs that can move you 100 miles, you could instead install a 4 cylinder engine and small 10 gallon fuel tank.

So generally I think the best solution is to make a 100 mile EV with something like a ford 3 cylinder 1.0L turbo range extender. It would weigh less than an EV with 200 mile range, but would essentially have unlimited range thanks to our fuel infrastructure.

Eventually we'll hit PEAK OIL and have to move away from fossil fuels altogether. At that time, people will just have to deal with charging time, unless we can come up with a better solution.

 

You don't really need a 9 speed. I was talking to a Jeep engineer, he said their 9 speed rarely gets into 9th gear, only under very low load perhaps going down a mountain at high speed. 7-8 gears is all that's needed for normal driving speeds, after that, you're at the point of diminished returns on adding more gears.

GM and Ford are doing 10 speed for trucks because that makes sense for towing. You can utilize a larger axle ratio for shorter gearing and better torque.

In the end, by 2025, car makers will need to put out every trick in the book. Bauxite, which is the ore refined to make aluminum, is one of the most abundant ore's in the world. The problem is it takes alot of electricity to turn it into aluminum. However, I think most cars will be made of a significant amount of aluminum when they need to reach their target mileage. Economies of scale will help lower the price.

Unfortunately, with a torque converter in the tucson 1.6T, it would probably get like 22city/28highway mileage in AWD, and it wouldn't be competitive with subaru, nissan or honda. I think the dual clutch was a necessity to stay competitive.

 

I do believe the Camaro as well as the Mustang will be getting the 10 speed. Im wondering what the first gear ratio will be on those cars getting the 10 speed. If what your saying about diminished return there will be little if any benefit to this tranny in these cars. Performance numbers will be the tell.

Back to the Tucson with the DCT 7. I generally do not come to a complete stop with this car in order to keep it in second gear without going into autostick. It does not seem to shudder as much moving forward after this. I also pratice this in rush hour traffic. Still can't stand this tranny and we are considering trading at this point.

As far as the targeted Cafe standards for the future, there seems to be a push to relax these standards somewhat so the future targets may change. Wait and see. Here is the latest:

There is adequate time between 2018 and 2022 to consider the issues. The 54.5/mpg standard isn’t to be applied until 2022. The law requires publication of the rule at least 18 months prior to the Model Year (MY) it is to take effect. After the MTE and the publication of the new standard, the clock would then reset.

Meaning they could just continue with the 2017 standard of 35 mpg as the adopted standard going forward for 2022 around 2020. So they have a few years yet to make changes.

 

I do believe the Camaro as well as the Mustang will be getting the 10 speed. Im wondering what the first gear ratio will be on those cars getting the 10 speed. If what your saying about diminished return there will be little if any benefit to this tranny in these cars. Performance numbers will be the tell.

Those machines are designed to drive in excess of 150mph. With a high driving speed range, they can utilize 10 gears. Please note that I said "7-8 gears for normal driving speeds".

 

Probably 'cause I learned to drive with std. transmissions ... I usually drop into neutral when idling, even in traffic. I've never had any problems with my DCT. Works like a well oiled machine. Great mileage, acceleration and reliability.

 

Gear ratios on the Camaro:


1st 4.70
2nd 2.99
3rd 2.15
4th 1.80
5th 1.52
6th 1.28
7th 1.00
8th 0.85
9th 0.69
10th 0.64

 

Interestingly enough, the 6 speed manual in the new ZL1 has a 14mpg city rating vs the 10 speed with the large high performance torque converter has a lower 12mpg city rating. Highway rating is the same for both.

Ratio's for the Chevy hydramatic 8L90 8 speed transmission used in the corvette.
1st 4.56
2nd 2.97
3rd 2.08
4th 1.69
5th 1.27
6th 1.00
7th 0.85
8th 0.65

As you can compare, the 10 speed slots in 1 more gear between 3rd and 4th gear, and adding a 9th gear. 7th and 8th gear is about the same ratios as 8th and 10th gear in the 10 speed.

With a high performance car that you'll flog and rev the the snot out of, you could possibly make use of those extra gears in terms of acceleration numbers, mainly in a timed track setting. A normal user won't notice them during driving at normal speeds. But I think past 8 gears, you're at the point of diminished returns in terms of fuel economy as well at normal driving speeds.

 

Sometimes when I have tried manually shifting the gears in my 7 speed DCT I feel like I don't even need to go into 7th if I get up to speed in 5th and 6th feels like an overdrive then 7th its kind of like an extra gear. I'm not a big fan of putting all these extra gears in transmissions. I guess I'm old school. I learned how to drive on a car with a 3 speed auto.

 

Last october i had the latest DCT updates installed. (TCM and ECM) The clutch shutter/chatter was reduced a tiny little bit, but it was still there. I've noticed the shudder varies a bit, sometimes it not there but mostly it is. It seems to change do to clutch temperature or whatever. About a month ago i went to my dealer one Saturday and started a conversation with the tech in the shop about DCT and transmissions in general (I'm a transmission rebuilder by trade). I mentioned about the clutch calibration for DCT. (I read about in here in the earlier threads). So we went out and did the clutch calibration to my 2016 Tucson. What i can say is it made HUGE! difference. "Huge" Just the calibration made the biggest improvement to remove the clutch shudder. I'm happy to report there is no clutch shudder at all! About a 95% improvement. I recommend to get the calibration done, its worth the effort. The actual process only takes about 5 mins to complete.

 

What exactly is the 'clutch calibration procedure', so I can explain it to my not so smart dealership?

 

Yes, please do reply.

 

Ask your service advisor to perform the DCT clutch calibration. The Hyundai GDS scan tool needs to be connected to the OBD connector. They use the GDS to perform all ECM/TCM computer updates. After the GDS is connected to your Tucson, the tech will see an option available in the list of updates, 'clutch calibration'. Thats what you want performed. Now you need to try to explain this to your service adviser.
This simple and quick procedure made a dramatic improvement. The clutch engagement is now very smooth and consistent (unlike before). I've owned my 2016 Tucson since Oct 2015, one of the first ones available.

 

Same here on the purchase side. Bought ours Sept, 2015. So I wonder why Hyundai did not have this as a part of the update. Especially if it's a quick 5 minute Job. Thanks for the info. I will be trying this ASAP.

 

Are we sure this DCT Clutch Calibration is not the same as one of the last round of updates for the DCT, around November 2016? I dont have the numbers (TSB?) of those updates handy.

EDIT: found the TSBs posted by sbr711 in post # 1791 of this thread:

" This TSB supersedes TSB # 16-01-038 with updated Dual Clutch Transmission control logic
software that includes some improvements to low speed driving characteristics and P0128."

I believe that these 2 updates were preformed on my '17 Tucson prior to delivery Nov 22, 2016, and I havent yet experienced any bad behavior in over 15,000 miles.

 

If you read sbr711's post 1947 he explains want happens in the Hyundai shop where works. He explains that the latest ECM/TCM updates get installed, but Hyundai doesn't have a prompt in the instruction for the installer to do the 2 step clutch calibration. We can blame Hyundai for that. If yours or anybody else has had the updates installed, and the clutch calibration was done at the same time, Thats Great. Yours will or should be working good with no clutch shudder problems. The DCT needs the calibration to realize the full benefit of the current updates to work properly... Solving Clutch Shudder is my concern here.

So the point i'm trying make is, if you have had all current ECM/TCM updates installed, AND YOU STILL HAVE THE ANNOYING CLUTCH SHUDDER. Then have the 2 Step Clutch Calibration done to your Tucson. For me I had the latest updates installed last October. I still had the clutch shudder for another 9 months after that. Last month i had only the calibration done and now the shudder is completely gone. Finally

I give credit to SRB711 for bring this to light.

 

AHHHHH! I get it! Thanks for the detailed explanation! :grin2:

I don't have any issue with the clutch or the DCT in my '17 Limited. The dealer did the updates the day before I took delivery in Nov 2016, so I don't actually know what exactly was done, but as I mentioned, 15,000 miles later it seems fine to me.

 

So Im going to give Hyundai one more shot at this. I scheduled an appointment to have the clutch calibrated this Friday but Im not holding my breath. When I spoke with the service tech he agreed with me that it is a well know issue with the DCT. He said he really does not like this transmission and everyone he has ever driven acts like this. He said Hyundai response has been that it's normal for them to shudder in first gear. Eye roll.

So if this clutch calibration does not work we will seriously be considering trading this in for another brand and saying goodbye to Hyundai. It will be the first and last one we will ever own. It's to bad because the car itself outside of the DCT has been fantastic.

Ill update my results.

 

DCTs are not for everyone. It helps to have experience driving a manual transmission.

 

I get that. But I did not buy a manual, I bought an automatic 7 speed that should act like an automatic.

All I use to drive was manuals for 20+ years till my late 30s. Im now in my 50s. I still own and drive a Suzuki rf900r sport bike so using a clutch is second nature to me. Been doing it all my life. I actually use to race dirt bikes and sport bikes back in the day.

The DCT is in no way like a real manual clutch tranny. It may try to act like one by design but it should not shudder, should not lurch, should not decided to randomly disengage, should not overheat sitting in traffic and so on and so on. Just mentioning some of the issues that have been posted here.

I also get that there is a learning curve with the DCT because it is different. However, based on this 2032+ replies to this thread there's a problem.

Just saying.

 

Just passed the 22K mark and I still don't have the issues others have had. I will get a slight studder at a crawl, like parking in the garage. But other than that, perfectly happy with the DCT. I do wonder if it is indeed just the tech's that can't do a proper install. It truly seems to be a hit or miss.

 

solman98 I really hope that's the case. After the update ours was better for a while but has progressively gotten worse again. So Im really hoping the clutch calibration solves most of the issue. Keeping my fingers crossed.

Glad to hear yours is going strong after 22k. We have about the same miles on our Tucson as you do. Other then the shudder ours has been doing well.

 

I have to be honest, I was really looking to getting the high end Tucson this December, but I am no longer even going to waste the money and time getting that with all the still same on going issues and Hyundai really not doing anything about them and the things the are doing don't seem to be true resolutions, but stop-gap measures. I am going to go for the standard tranny on the SE model, which is good enough for me...I do not want to take my life or others and place them in a car that is unreliable, undependable and just unsafe overall. It is a shame, because I would have been willing to spend the cash, but not as long as the cars still have the DCT tranny in them....very sad

 

The problem is, when I read something like this, it seems like some exaggeration or hysteria. I drive around with my DCT and don't have any of those concerns or feelings that you describe.

 

Question: if you have had the updates done, will the dealers do a clutch calibration as warranty or update fix standalone? Or do they want $$ to do it??
Just getting ready before I take it in to get the calibration done.

 

I'm sure there are thousands of satisfied owners of the Tucson with the DCT who don't go to online forums to state how happy they are with their cars and have never had an issue with the DCT. Just saying.

With that said, I was very unhappy with taking my Tucson to the dealer four times to get the AC fixed, yes, time, mileage, hassle, etc. Not fun. But it was finally fixed.