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BMW = Broke My Wallet
I owned a 5series before. Starter broke, $350. Put it next to my Toy starter $80, looks the same.

Outlander PHEV - different class. (Weight to hp ratio sucks, 117 HP gas engine on a 4180 lb suv.) I would not want to take it to Lake Tahoe (80mi drive, 10K ft elevation rise.)
 

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That 117HP is only the combustion engine though. Believe the total HP is 203HP or so when you account for the EV motor. Not saying that's a lot, but it's a lot more than 117 of course. I'd bet the EV torque helps a bit too. Who knows, I'm just glad that another brand is stepping up with something new in a PHEV standard SUV.
 

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Discussion Starter #5

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That 117HP is only the combustion engine though. Believe the total HP is 203HP or so when you account for the EV motor. Not saying that's a lot, but it's a lot more than 117 of course. I'd bet the EV torque helps a bit too. Who knows, I'm just glad that another brand is stepping up with something new in a PHEV standard SUV.
Exactly my point. When you climb a mountain like the Sierras, the EV battery will be used up in 1st 10 minutes for Outlander (and Sonata). Then you will be on ICE only. For the rest of the way, the heavy battery and EV drive train is a liability. That may be a reason why Hyundai used the 6 spd AT. You can at least down shift and use that 154HP I4 at it's peak band.
Using only ICE power on a long climb, the Sonata PI has 44% better Wt/Hp ratio than Outlander PI.
You have to compare apples to apples. When both EV motor and ICE propelling, Outlander = 197 HP, Sonata = 202 HP.
Battery depleted: Outlander = 117 HP, Sonata = 154 HP.
BTW, Sonata PI Coef of Drag = 0.24, Best in Class.
Outlander = Big rectangular box. :)
Physics.
 

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You have to stop drinking the hawker's cool-aid. There is no free lunch in physics. When you have a big cabin like a SUV and even bigger one like a full size minivan. You MUST use ICE engine to heat the interior in cold regions. That WILL require your gas engine to run. If you want to use only battery heat, it WILL reduce your EV range.
There is no magic, heat pipe with unattainium solution.
When Outlander runs the electric heater water pump, where is the heat that heated the water? Hint: "Engine powered 7-kW heater..."
How much cost, cabin space, reliability impact, added maintenance, to trade-off?
What % of Sonata's buyers need it?

Pacifica PHEV - google recall. Chrysler really dropped the ball early on.
Seriously, if you like SUV or Minivan plug-in, go buy one.
They are different class products.
BTW, lets be fair, each generation of EV will be better. Prius Prime is better than 1st PIP.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Chevy Volt uses a electric heater and the Prius Prime uses a heat pump before firing up the ICE. Sure the traction battery get depleted faster, but you still have the ability to keep warm and drive without the using the gas engine for a lot longer.

The numbers I've seen show the Prius EV miles dropping from 27 miles to low twenties for someone living is Western Washington.
 

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1st, I don't love Hyundai, we are early adopters of EV, there will be trade-offs. Did you know the 75K usd$ Tesla uses a regular simple ole resistive heater system, even though the lowly 2017 Leaf has a heat pump. Do you know why?
EV range. Tesla has globs of it, Leaf can't afford to give up 20% in the winter. That is the trade-off.
We, with plug-ins, have NO range anxiety as we can drive on gas anywhere as long as a gas station is open.
Internal combustion engine is a prodigious heat generator, in fact 70% of the gasoline energy is dissipated into heat and only 30% end up doing useful work of turning the wheels. So, ICE generate a ton of excess heat, we have that in our plug-in, while the pure EV don't.
You keep harping on the heat pump is so good. Did you know a heat pump will still need a resisitive heater in the truly frigid regions like Canada? HP efficiency is good, but only work in mild temperatures and takes a LONG time to get up to temperature. In truly cold climate like -30F, the HP "capacity" which is the amount of heat output will be pathetic.
No to mention, when you have a heatpump, which is an AC running backwards, you cannot have "AC defrost' at the same time!
This is a bit of a problem in winter time, now you need an AC for defrost, a HP for heat, a resistive element for really cold. :)
So what's the point for adding something that is of diminishing value that you must still have 2 backup system to work when there is a ICE engine sitting under our hood?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
You don't use AC to defrost. You need heat to melt ice, not cold air. Secondly, you can use heat to demist and defrost. What do you think those heater elements in the rear window are for?

What's the point of a PHEV outside of a HOV sticker if you can't run it in EV mode at least 80% of the time, year round? Which brings up my main point. Hyundai should pull the plug on the PHEV.
 

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You don't use AC to defrost. You need heat to melt ice, not cold air.
Newsflash: all contemporary cars (at least going as far as 2001 models, which my Mitsubishi Galant was back in the day) run AC when you direct air to the windshield, whether you want it or not.

There are cases when AC doesn't run if it's too cold, but that's a separate event.

Even if the AC light is off, it will run it. I'm not sure what happens if you turn the AC off while defrosting.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Newsflash: all contemporary cars (at least going as far as 2001 models, which my Mitsubishi Galant was back in the day) run AC when you direct air to the windshield, whether you want it or not.

There are cases when AC doesn't run if it's too cold, but that's a separate event.

Even if the AC light is off, it will run it. I'm not sure what happens if you turn the AC off while defrosting.

You don't use the AC to defrost a windshield. You use AC to demist/defog a windshield. You can also demist/defog a windshield by heating it above the dew point.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
You would have to modify the AC system to run as a heat pump if you wanted use the AC system to heat the vehicle. Which the Sonata doesn't do and that's my point.
 

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You don't use the AC to defrost a windshield. You use AC to demist/defog a windshield. You can also demist/defog a windshield by heating it above the dew point.
When you defrost the windshield by directing warm air to the windshield, the AC comes on whether you like it or not.
 

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Marshall you are missing the fundamentals of refrigeration systems. Believe me, I live in that world.
An AC in cooling mode not only cools the interior by exchanging heat with the exterior air.
The refrigerant is compressed, changes phase from vapor to liquid in the condenser.
During the cooling phase, the high pressure liquid is throttled by a cap tube or a txv into low pressure vapor in the evaporator in the cabin. That phase crhange process absorbs a tremendous amount of heat, thus cooling take place.
While cooling the cabin air, AC also condenses the water vapor in the air into liquid and it drips out of the cabin.
A heat pump is the AC run backwards, by the use of a reversing valve.
There is no defrost when the system is in heat mode. There is also a need to stop the heat pump every half hours or so to DEFROST the heat exchanger that will be caked in ice.
In humid climates, a form of AC is used as dehumidifier, it will even dry your carpet in the house.
Well, warmed air just keeps the water droplets suspended, it is never is removed.
So when this warmed air hits the windshield which is very cold, it fogs up the windshield.
I learned this when I was a poor college kid driving a '66 VW air cooled engine with long "heated air exchanger" ducts. I
t was useless. My handy wiping rag was always at hand.
The heat pump is based heat exchange to the ambient air. Guess what when the ambient air is -30F, not much heat is exchanged.


BTW, look for Redstrawberry's thread on inadequate heating from a covered gasoline engine.
Heat pump will not work in the northern hemi, and is not needed at CA, TX and below, Asia, S. Amer, where Hyundai sells cars.
 

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phftw, thanks friend. Texas and California are the ideal climates for PHEV. I am practically driving for free.
Believe me, I owned several Toyotas, my son drives a Corolla. My wife drives a Honda.
If Hyundai screws me, they will be sorry. But the Sonata plug-in is dreamy for me.
Quiet, power seat, navig, good stereo, 99.9MPGe.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Marshall you are missing the fundamentals of refrigeration systems. Believe me, I live in that world.
An AC in cooling mode not only cools the interior by exchanging heat with the exterior air.
The refrigerant is compressed, changes phase from vapor to liquid in the condenser.
During the cooling phase, the high pressure liquid is throttled by a cap tube or a txv into low pressure vapor in the evaporator in the cabin. That phase crhange process absorbs a tremendous amount of heat, thus cooling take place.
While cooling the cabin air, AC also condenses the water vapor in the air into liquid and it drips out of the cabin.
A heat pump is the AC run backwards, by the use of a reversing valve.
There is no defrost when the system is in heat mode. There is also a need to stop the heat pump every half hours or so to DEFROST the heat exchanger that will be caked in ice.
In humid climates, a form of AC is used as dehumidifier, it will even dry your carpet in the house.
Well, warmed air just keeps the water droplets suspended, it is never is removed.
So when this warmed air hits the windshield which is very cold, it fogs up the windshield.
I learned this when I was a poor college kid driving a '66 VW air cooled engine with long "heated air exchanger" ducts. I
t was useless. My handy wiping rag was always at hand.
The heat pump is based heat exchange to the ambient air. Guess what when the ambient air is -30F, not much heat is exchanged.


BTW, look for Redstrawberry's thread on inadequate heating from a covered gasoline engine.
Heat pump will not work in the northern hemi, and is not needed at CA, TX and below, Asia, S. Amer, where Hyundai sells cars.
Fuel, I am well aware of how an AC system works. I worked as a test tech for a small AC/heater manufacture for large trucks and off-road equipment for over 10 years.

Heat pumps can work quite well for homes here in Western Washington, especially as a supplement for homes built with baseboard heat. The neighbor down the street installed a ductless one last year, and I've seen a few others installed around the homes near me.

For cars, I've seen a 20% hit on EV mode range for the Toyota Prius Prime here in Western Washington. This means the car can still run in EV mode only for short trips. The Sonata Plug-in can't do that here in Western Washington!

Heck if Hyundai had just installed a PTC heater that would be a huge improvement for me as almost all my driving is under twenty miles round trip. Right now I'm going from 99 mpg to around 31 mpg in HEV mode only and around 40 mpg with EV mode selected. That's a huge, huge hit just to run the engine as a heater.

Again, I don't see much point in the current Sonata plug-in. Hyundai and Kia should just pull the plug on this version of this car, but apparently they are still going to offer the vehicle in 2018, as it's showing up on the Kia web site.
 
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