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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/06/30/act-f...rius-limited-t/

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In case you missed it, Hyundai gave us a ballpark price for the 2011 Hyundai Sonata Hybrid. As Hyundai said, expect the hybrid Sonata to start in the mid-$20K neighborhood. Now, considering that the Sonata is a whole lot of car, the mid-$20K price is quite remarkable, but the deal will be even sweeter for a limited-time only. When Hyundai launches the Sonata Hybrid this fall (October or November), it will immediately qualify for a deep discount courtesy of the Feds. How much the Sonata Hybrid qualifies for is still up in the air due to MPG ratings, but it will almost certainly be substantial enough to drop the base price below the Toyota Prius, which unfortunately no longer qualifies for any help.

If all goes as planned, the Hyundai Sonata Hybrid will qualify for a $3,400 tax credit, bringing the grand total expense down into the low-$20K region, an area where few hybrids linger. This exceptionally low price will only be available until the federal hybrid tax credit expires in December 2010 or until Hyundai reaches the 60,000 hybrid vehicle cut-off limit. Stepping into a full-size hybrid vehicle for less than $22,000 is possible, but only if you act fast.
 

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I can't see dealers wanting to sell the limited supply hybrids for as much as or less than a GLS.
 

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QUOTE (sonatahyd @ Jul 3 2010, 06:35 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=338482
Well, they won't. They'll sell it for $25k and then the feds give you $3,400.
Tax credit mean you get do DEDUCT $3,400 from your taxes, not that they GIVE you $3,400. In real world money, that means you might get back $1000 of REAL money on average. Or if you're like me, you get nothing since I already can write off more than I make every year.
 

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The Hybrid will not be out until December.. So that leaves very little time to get one and still be eligible for the tax credit...
 

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Do we know exact EPA ratings yet? I keep going back and forth between cars and I want to see the new Sportage. If I don't like it, I will be purchasing a Sonata. If the hybrid gets over 40, I will definitely consider it. What I find odd is that the Hybrid has 9 more horsepower than the SE.

We were told we would get our first hybrid the last week of October or first week of November.
 

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This review

Hybrid Cars - Hyundai Sonata Hybrid

says:

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While we’re still lacking perhaps the most critical piece of information—the purchase price—it appears that Hyundai has produced a mainstream mid-size hybrid sedan that provides real competition for class-leading fuel economy. Hyundai expects the Sonata Hybrid to achieve 37 miles per gallon in the city and 39 mpg on the highway.
 

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So if you're in the 33% tax bracket, and you buy the Sonata Hybrid for let's say $25,000, then you might save $1000 on your total tax bill. If you guestimate the MPG at 40, then you can calculate your actual savings over the life of the car. Let's be generous and say you save 25% in MPG over a regular Sonata.

Car cost 25k, which let's say 5K more than a regular Sonata. So -5k for cost.

Save 1K on the tax credit if you buy before December. So now it's -4k for cost.

Then your average fuel cost based on todays fuel price times 15k average miles per year. So an average of 15k miles at $3 per gallon... that's $1500 in fuel for a regular Sonata, or a savings of $375 per year for the hybrid... so it will take more than 10 years to recoup the cost and break even.

Now get practical, and understand that your regular mechanic is not qualified to work on the thing, so you have to take it to the dealer. Factor in the new technology and assume it will have bugs. Maybe the battery will go bad, or certainly it will degrade over time and you won't get the same MPG like when it was new. Plus the use of the extra parts and complexity of the technology will certainly use PLENTY of raw materials and other resources.

So unless you drive A LOT, then it's a safe bet to assume you'll never recoup the cost of the thing. I won't really be better for the environment, and the government spent all this money to make a tax credit.

At the end of the day, you'd be better off buying a regular Sonata, combine trips, keep your tires inflated, drive slower, etc.
 

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QUOTE (jsinton @ Jul 3 2010, 09:58 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=338507
... won't really be better for the environment,...
That part is a whole 'nother story, jsinton.

Out of the box, from what I've read, these hybrids have already been worse for the environment than what they will make up for in 10 years.

Something about the impact on the environment in the making and transporting the batteries even before they go into the vehicle.


We would get way :eek:fftopic: to pursue this further, however.


I'm pleased with my Sonata, but will admit that I would have looked closely at the Hybrid if it had been available.

I think the bottom line to this thread will be the bottom line price of the Sonata Hybrid.

Otherwise, as with all hybrids so far, your points are valid.
 

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QUOTE (sonatahyd @ Jul 3 2010, 05:35 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=338482
Well, they won't. They'll sell it for $25k and then the feds give you $3,400.
Hottest version of the hottest sedan of 2010? With a $3500 credit that everyone knows about, and apparently misunderstands? You'll be lucky to get one under $30k.

jsinton, yer right, i did the math too and unless I drive 15+k miles a year and get a killer price on the Hybrid, its not really economically beneficial to get the hybrid. I think I estimated I will save $400 over ten years if I got a good deal. I'll gladly pay $40 a year for the increased trunk space, better acceleration and handling, and lower maintenance costs of the standard.

People who can't do math will jump on these thinking they're gonna save thousands a year and get $3500 cash back from uncle sam. They will end up with overpaying on a car, maybe a grand off their taxes, and higher annual costs. My recommendation: just get a GLS and get a Hybrid emblem off ebay, it will be cheaper, better for the economy, and you can still impress strangers on the expressway.

I could see these taking off with some fleets though, like taxi companies. They put on enough miles to make the investment back.

JohnWho, I wouldn't be surprised to find that the Hybrids are worse. You gotta look at the entire life of the product. Remember the uproar over bad-for-the-environment flat panel TV's? When they looked into it more they found that while the TVs were terrible in waste dumps, the fact that they saved space and weight in shipping overseas more than made up for it.
 

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There is a difference between a tax deduction and a tax credit. In the case of the Hybrid, it's a tax credit. That means it's dollar for dollar in your pocket regardless of your tax bracket.

Now, I must admit that I don't know how it works if your yearly tax bill is less than the $3500. I know some people get checks for Earned Income Credit even though they actually pay no taxes that year. But I don't know if the Hybrid credit works the same way. But most of us do pay taxes every year and most of us pay way more than $3500.
 

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QUOTE (sonatahyd @ Jul 3 2010, 03:35 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=338482
Well, they won't. They'll sell it for $25k and then the feds give you $3,400.

QUOTE (jsinton @ Jul 3 2010, 04:46 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=338487
Tax credit mean you get do DEDUCT $3,400 from your taxes, not that they GIVE you $3,400. In real world money, that means you might get back $1000 of REAL money on average. Or if you're like me, you get nothing since I already can write off more than I make every year.
Got it. Never really cared for hybrids enough to even look into how the deduction works.
 

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QUOTE (midas69 @ Jul 3 2010, 11:39 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=338524
There is a difference between a tax deduction and a tax credit. In the case of the Hybrid, it's a tax credit. That means it's dollar for dollar in your pocket regardless of your tax bracket.

Now, I must admit that I don't know how it works if your yearly tax bill is less than the $3500. I know some people get checks for Earned Income Credit even though they actually pay no taxes that year. But I don't know if the Hybrid credit works the same way. But most of us do pay taxes every year and most of us pay way more than $3500.
I see, you're right. In the past it was a deduction. Now it's a credit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
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Tax credit mean you get do DEDUCT $3,400 from your taxes, not that they GIVE you $3,400. In real world money, that means you might get back $1000 of REAL money on average. Or if you're like me, you get nothing since I already can write off more than I make every year.
Nope, CREDIT means dollar for dollar in your pocket, you'll get the $3,400 back.

You are confusing a deduction and a credit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
While I agree that usually hybrids aren't cost effective, at $22k, and especially if you do a majority of your driving in the city it's a steal. The bump up from 22mpg to 37 city is very significant especially when you are considering its perhaps a $1k or $2k above the base gls. And I'm not sure if the base gls is the proper comparison. From the sonata they showed at the new york auto show there are lots of goodies in the hybrid unavailable in the base gls.

For instance, push button start, mirror directional lights, led front and back lights, and the interior and exterior "look" of the hybrid is very different too.













 

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..
Defiantly Fuguly different..... :alien:

+ .... Mileage
+ .... Rear LED lamps
neg .... Basking shark grill
neg .... ft lower lamps
neg .... squarest three part rear bumper
? .... Price, We'll see
? .... lower door sil chrome moldings
 

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Tax credits may be granted for various types of taxes (income tax, property tax, VAT, etc.) in recognition of taxes already paid, as a subsidy, or to encourage investment or other behaviors. Tax credits may or may not be refundable[1] to the extent they exceed the respective tax.
 

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QUOTE (sonatahyd @ Jul 3 2010, 12:52 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=338539
Nope, CREDIT means dollar for dollar in your pocket, you'll get the $3,400 back.

You are confusing a deduction and a credit.
Well technically the credit is a non-refundable credit (if I'm recalling correctly) which means you get dollar for dollar in your pocket, assuming your income tax liability is at least $3,400. If it is less then that then you won't get all the credit. Other credits, like the earned income credit or the housing credit, are refundable which means you don't need a tax liability to get the credit and that they will refund you any excess credit over your income tax liability. I'm assuming most buyers will have an income tax liability of at least 3,400, except maybe some retirees.

I guess my saving grace is I'm not a fan of the Hybrid front end (at least in pictures). If I could get the Hybrid for what I paid for my SE, I'd probably be kicking myself as I do mainly city/residential driving, and it would be nice to get the improved gas mileage with a hybrid. That being said, you don't get the credit for leasing, which is what I'm doing with the SE so I'm not going to lose any sleep over it :grin:
 

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QUOTE (jsinton @ Jul 3 2010, 06:46 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=338487
Tax credit mean you get do DEDUCT $3,400 from your taxes, not that they GIVE you $3,400. In real world money, that means you might get back $1000 of REAL money on average. Or if you're like me, you get nothing since I already can write off more than I make every year.
You have it backwards.

A tax credit is exactly that, a credit. A deduction is where you deduct money from your taxes.

So if you get a $3400 tax CREDIT, you get $3400 back on your taxes. Anyone who has filed their own taxes knows this.

If it was a $3400 deduction, then you are correct in that you deduct that amount from your taxable income whcih translates to only a fraction of that amount in actual money back on your taxes.
 
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