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And the gent that said no one has figured out the GDI intake valve issue - well at least Toyota Ford and Infiniti have and are attempting to do so utilizing DI and PI .
It's an admirable attempt to save this technology but kind of funny at the same time. Personally, I think their R&D funds would be better utilized in proofing out HCCI or just moving to electrified powertrains. Volvo is doing the latter since they have far less resources to call on and understand that we have come very close to reaching peak efficiency with the internal combustion engine


Yes I can understand happiness in getting a refurb block and engine fixed for free - but really should this be happening in the 1st place - all from a "change in the cleaning process"
It shouldn't and that is more of a Hyundai management issue than even an engineering one. Recall the story about the Hyundai whistleblower who told management that Theta II had a design issue prior to the release of the YF Sonata. Yet Hyundai release the car to the public with the flaw then blame owners for not maintaining the car when the engine failed. The company culture is to blame here fully

I have my fingers crossed my powerplant will blow before Hyundai closes out the recall.

Maybe Hyundai will get the Theta III design correct.
Luckily the recall seems to be open ended and they are retesting vehicles multiple times prior to failing. If its cold wher you live listen hard at cold start...sounds like piston slap but it will progress to bearing failure with time. Just like mine did.

And Theta III wont happen. Hyundai will most likely move the lineup to even smaller displacement turbo engines (i.e. the 1.6t that is already in the Sonata) just like everyone else, call all usage severe duty, and dodge warranty claims by claiming owner neglect until the next huge batch of failures. Then issue a recall under government scrutiny with bogus test procedure and say its fixed. Business as usual

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Thanks for the photo upload and details! Definitely computes: these engines, no matter how well cared-for they are, seem to have this issue across the board due to the design. There's nothing you can do to prevent this sort of build-up with the Theta II, so the evidence shows.

I'm curious what mine will look like when and if I get around to looking. Or when it fails, whichever occurs first. :grin2:
So why do it or advocate doing it ? Using quality oil and reasonable oci I can understand - but folks advocate a lot of other stuff - top tier fuels, catch cans , what I didn't see these posters doing is the CRC intake valve cleaning - which could have been another data point.

What I kind of meant is that despite doing these things his engine still seized - so no matter what extraordinary measures you make take - royal purple, 3k oci, filling the oil filter , catch cans - a flawed engine is still a flawed engine - which is exactly what the Theta II engines is for certain build yrs.
And should it fail Hyundai has to replace it irrespective of how meticulous you cared for it or how badly you neglected it. I want my engine to seize and be replaced - because it is a deficient design akin to a ticking bomb.

Link to article what Ford id doing with DI and PI - Toyota I believe going even further. Toyota has a well earned reputation for not incorporating technology unless it is proven to meet their reliability standards.

www.caranddriver.com/news/explained-why-some-engines-have-both-port-and-direct-injection
 

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It's an admirable attempt to save this technology but kind of funny at the same time. Personally, I think their R&D funds would be better utilized in proofing out HCCI or just moving to electrified powertrains. Volvo is doing the latter since they have far less resources to call on and understand that we have come very close to reaching peak efficiency with the internal combustion engine


It shouldn't and that is more of a Hyundai management issue than even an engineering one. Recall the story about the Hyundai whistleblower who told management that Theta II had a design issue prior to the release of the YF Sonata. Yet Hyundai release the car to the public with the flaw then blame owners for not maintaining the car when the engine failed. The company culture is to blame here fully



Luckily the recall seems to be open ended and they are retesting vehicles multiple times prior to failing. If its cold wher you live listen hard at cold start...sounds like piston slap but it will progress to bearing failure with time. Just like mine did.

And Theta III wont happen. Hyundai will most likely move to even smaller displacement turbo engines just like everyone else, call all usage sever duty, and string out warranty claims until the next huge batch of failures then issue a bogus recall. Business as usual

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Well I hope for my sake as well as others the recall is open ended. And yes I applaud you for your realistic viewpoint of how a lot of automakers operate, certainly not only Hyundai, but I got burnt by buying prior to the mpg debacle (where Hyundai finally admitted wrongdoing) and now this engine debacle where they have effectively painted themselves into a corner. People need to realize what you said - they are not replacing engines because they are the "good guys" they are replacing engines to meet a NHTSA recall and must do so even if no maintenance was done on an engine.
I will be listening, hoping and praying, lol
 

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Well I hope for my sake as well as others the recall is open ended. And yes I applaud you for your realistic viewpoint of how a lot of automakers operate, certainly not only Hyundai, but I got burnt by buying prior to the mpg debacle (where Hyundai finally admitted wrongdoing) and now this engine debacle where they have effectively painted themselves into a corner. People need to realize what you said - they are not replacing engines because they are the "good guys" they are replacing engines to meet a NHTSA recall and must do so even if no maintenance was done on an engine.
I will be listening, hoping and praying, lol
All you can do. Also...drive it.

A lot.

Dont baby it. Give it the old Italian tune up at least once per week if not once per day. Something about flogging these motors on a regular basis keeps them healthier than just letting them sit. If you are not seeing sooty exhaust pipes or a burp of black smoke when you punch it to WOT, be very concerned.

Also if you have not done so already, get on a first name basis with a good dealership. I found that having an ally or two on the other side of the service counter helps even if it's just to vent.

Remember, I've done this dance twice.

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ok so you have been doing all those things - plus I believe singing the praises of the Hyundai engine and your engine still seizes and your intake valves were all gummed up. Does not compute.

And the gent that said no one has figured out the GDI intake valve issue - well at least Toyota Ford and Infiniti have and are attempting to do so utilizing DI and PI . When folks say Hyundai is good as better as Toyota - they should read the engineering development Toyota put into researching this issue and came up with a solution that utilizes PI at times when engine power requirements are lower - in other words an intelligent solution that took some level of engineering expertise.

Yes I can understand happiness in getting a refurb block and engine fixed for free - but really should this be happening in the 1st place - all from a "change in the cleaning process" I have my fingers crossed my powerplant will blow before Hyundai closes out the recall.

Maybe Hyundai will get the Theta III design correct. :laugh:

IMHO: Believe me, I understand your frustration. I'm an engineer myself. If you read what I wrote, you will note that the real issue it seems with the 2.0L and 2.4L engines was not the "debris" issue but the design of the balance shaft/oil pump assembly. Apparently that got corrected by Kia's MY15 and these new engines have that update. Kia at least has taken the right approach to resolve this with their owners (including 2nd owners and beyond).



As to the intake track, many car makers have this GDI issue from the highly esteemed BMW to Audi to Ford and others. Toyota has had their dual PFI and GDI around for some time now with good success and I believe IS the right engineered path to take to eliminate the issue. Ford has joined this bandwagon of late. But while my intake has the crusty intake valves, I had NO complaints on the power or mileage I was getting. Could it have been better with cleaner valves, you bet. It is something I will watch with the new engine. Maybe proactively cleaning it myself every 30K miles.



The likely reason all the car makers have not jumped to the better solution is cost. But now that it has been shown that you can get the "best of both worlds" using such a system AND keep the intake valves cleaner, I'm hopeful that more will adopt it - including Kia/Hyundai.
 

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IMHO: If you read what I wrote, you will note that the real issue it seems with the 2.0L and 2.4L engines was not the "debris" issue but the design of the balance shaft/oil pump assembly.

Apparently that got corrected by Kia's MY15 and these new engines have that update
Is it a fact that the balance shaft/oil pump assembly is/was the reason for failed engines. If so,when or in what year did they start implementing new parts?

What does KIA MY15 mean?
 

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Is it a fact that the balance shaft/oil pump assembly is/was the reason for failed engines. If so,when or in what year did they start implementing new parts?

What does KIA MY15 mean?
are you looking for "facts" or "alternative facts"0:)

the facts are contained in the NHTSA recall notices - addressing the Hyundai and KIA vehicles impacted as well as what I believe is the only official explanation to date from Hyundai as to the cause - "debris from the cleaning process" .

Hyundai remains tight lipped about most everything else - understandably so because they are still being investigated for failure to disclose a known safety issue, I believe that investigation was opened in May 2017.

As far other known facts some posters researched and posted regards changes (pn revisions) made to the connecting rods and crankshaft bearings which are relevant with respect to time.

I would view the oil pump assembly cause as more conjecture - given the source and that typically oil pump issues manifest themselves as noise from the top end of the engine - but only one would assume Hyundai knows for sure and there could possibly be multiple root causes of the Theta II engine failures.

I tried to get an update from the NHTSA on the investigation - they only say that it is ongoing and being handled by some US district attorneys office . I think the Toyota investigation took several yrs to conclude and the longer the Hyundai investigation takes may actually be a good thing because it could represent leverage for Hyundai to keep the recall open and do the right thing for owners of these vehicles - whose engines continue to fail .
 

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What do you do when you've got some noises but the engine has not failed (yet) at 115,000 miles? 2011 Sonata GLS.
you can be patient - or consider employing some facilitation strategies, like never changing or checking the oil level . I'm not doing those kind of things or advocating them at this point in time, some have posted regards this though.

Having said the above though I don't want to left out of an engine replacement should the recall close out and sometime down the road my engine fails because of the defect.

Might be a moral dilemma but it was Hyundai who choose to try and cover up the engine defect.
 

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Is it a fact that the balance shaft/oil pump assembly is/was the reason for failed engines. If so,when or in what year did they start implementing new parts?

What does KIA MY15 mean?

KIA MY15 means the KIA Optima SX Model Year 2015 with the 2.0L turbo engine. It was in 2015 (the last year of the 274HP engine, by this time Hyundai had already switched to the 245HP engine for MY15 Sonatas) that the Optima had the cumulative improvements to this engine before switching to the revised engine that used the smaller turbo and re-engineered several other engine components. To me, the Optima 2011-2015 and the Sonata 2010-2014 where the more exciting designs/engines/etc.



As to solid gold facts, good luck getting any "official" answer other than the previously acknowledged "debris" issue for the KIA SC147 recall. From smart techs that have gone online and discussed it and side conversations with long term dealership folks (like what I had recently), this is their best determination - some design error with the oil pump/balance shaft assembly. They did revise it. Only time will tell if this solved the issue. For me, given I have the unlimited miles/unlimited years engine warranty, I think I'm good.


Do I wish this never was an issue or concern? You betcha!
 

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All you can do. Also...drive it.

Also if you have not done so already, get on a first name basis with a good dealership. I found that having an ally or two on the other side of the service counter helps even if it's just to vent.


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for the past 40 + yrs my vehicles and those of extended family haven't not been to the dealership or any other repair shop with the exception of wheel alignments, warranty work and to get my annual mileage adjustment odo reading. And on the initial reading the dealership managed to screw that up.

So really not interested in or see the need to make making buddies with the good folks at the dealership, but next time I'm passing by I may pick up a few packets of the Hyundai Kool Aid as it must have something special in it:laugh:
 

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for the past 40 + yrs my vehicles and those of extended family haven't not been to the dealership or any other repair shop with the exception of wheel alignments, warranty work and to get my annual mileage adjustment odo reading. And on the initial reading the dealership managed to screw that up.

So really not interested in or see the need to make making buddies with the good folks at the dealership, but next time I'm passing by I may pick up a few packets of the Hyundai Kool Aid as it must have something special in it
My guess is your dealer is horrible and dealing with them has not been great for you. I get it and I have been there. That's why I looked for one that had personable service folks and actually listened to my complaints. They ain't perfect and we have had issues but overall they keep my ride running with minimal damage to my wallet. Yes I throw them work outside of warranty but its stuff that i cannot or will not do. Their rates are only a tad bit above independent shops and they are a short distance from my job. And they price match.

At the end of the day, they make it work to my advantage and have gone the extra mile. While I will never buy another hyundai product as long as I own one my dealer will be looking at it first when I dont want to get dirty.

Best of luck with your car. And remember it's a dealership..they will probably charge you for that kool aid!

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I agree it can't hurt to have some "friends" at the dealership...they get bitched at a lot and being congenial and complimentary may help in the future.
I've only had warranty and a recall and was treat well...I wrote them up highly on their website, on Google, and Yelp.
Positive feeds positive...in my experience. :thumbsup:
 

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Thanks for the kind words - and no I wasn't intending to take a shot at you or anyone who depends upon the dealership - there are undoubtedly some good and very good ones, even some bad or mediocre ones with some decent people. And yes I agree with your approach - relationships are effective - some back I tooted my own horn because someone said well he worked as a mechanic or was a quality guy so he's credible - believe it was Solman - my response was that it just so happens I have a 4 yr degree in mechanical engineering from a respected institution - but my knowledge of autos comes primarily from hands on plus in the latter stages of my career I worked as a sales guy - where knowing what questions to ask and getting your customer talking are highly essential skills.
So I sometimes use those skills in other situations and have on occasion at the dealership - and some of the stuff that I've heard from people is just amazing - and asking an occasional question like "what causes this" or "why did that happen" and they are more than willing to give me their perspective. Don't get me wrong sometimes they are well informed and it's a learning opportunity.

But the pinnacle is at a Saab dealership - I posted this sometime back - and asking the service mgr why my throttle body failed. "they usually last a very long time - unless you are using that cheap gas from the Indian reservation as it wears out the TB" This happened while visiting WNY - where there happens to be a Seneca Indian reservation that sells cheaper gas - because it's not taxed. I thanked him kindly for sharing his knowledge and somehow manged to keep from laughing outloud.
 

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are you looking for "facts" or "alternative facts"0:)
I just wish Hyundai would come out with the truth and state the part(s) that failed and why.Would also like to see them give a time line and vin numbers of when new parts were put into effect.

I am concerned for the people who had short blocks or long blocks installed early on. Did they get engines that were truly free of the problem or did they get engines that will have the same issues?

For instance,our 2014 Sonata received a long block. Right now there is no way for me to know if that engine will eventually suffer the same fate.
 

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KIA MY15 means the KIA Optima SX Model Year 2015 with the 2.0L turbo engine. It was in 2015 (the last year of the 274HP engine, by this time Hyundai had already switched to the 245HP engine for MY15 Sonatas) that the Optima had the cumulative improvements to this engine before switching to the revised engine that used the smaller turbo and re-engineered several other engine components. To me, the Optima 2011-2015 and the Sonata 2010-2014 where the more exciting designs/engines/etc.
Appreciate the explanation and thanks for the intake valve pics. Any pics of the valve train? Happy to see the dealer did not bark at ANY of your mods. Makes one laugh that people are afraid to use non Hyundai filters. ...:unsure:Good luck with the car William.
 

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I just wish Hyundai would come out with the truth and state the part(s) that failed and why.Would also like to see them give a time line and vin numbers of when new parts were put into effect.

I am concerned for the people who had short blocks or long blocks installed early on. Did they get engines that were truly free of the problem or did they get engines that will have the same issues?

For instance,our 2014 Sonata received a long block. Right now there is no way for me to know if that engine will eventually suffer the same fate.
well yes that is the point of my sometimes acerbic posts - they chose to lie and by doing so made a bad situation worse for themselves and us - their customers. Some folks were in denial regards this but the overwhelming evidence says they choose to deceive - and did it poorly at that - so now with a legal investigation they have likely been told by legal counsel to stay silent - which makes it frustrating for owners.

And it's entertaining to speculate on the cause and just recently a poster saying "it happened to me" sounding incredulous because they change their oil, use heavier syn aftermarker filter and so on. Doesn't matter if the engine is defective - because it can give it up irrespective of what extraordinary measures you take - barring of course never driving it.

I just hope the US powers that be decide not to whack them with a big fine - but instead make them admit culpability - which has been part of past settlements - and have a provision where extended warranty covers owners from future engine failures rather than leaving it to class action suits.

I think Williamhood mentioned KIA is doing that ? If true then so should Hyundai.

I don't like owing a car with a defective engine where I could possibly bear replacement costs and I'm sure many others don't as well.

But basically Hyundai lies, I don't see how anyone can soften or dispute that.
 

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well yes that is the point of my sometimes acerbic posts - they chose to lie and by doing so made a bad situation worse for themselves and us - their customers. Some folks were in denial regards this but the overwhelming evidence says they choose to deceive - and did it poorly at that - so now with a legal investigation they have likely been told by legal counsel to stay silent - which makes it frustrating for owners.

And it's entertaining to speculate on the cause and just recently a poster saying "it happened to me" sounding incredulous because they change their oil, use heavier syn aftermarker filter and so on. Doesn't matter if the engine is defective - because it can give it up irrespective of what extraordinary measures you take - barring of course never driving it.

I just hope the US powers that be decide not to whack them with a big fine - but instead make them admit culpability - which has been part of past settlements - and have a provision where extended warranty covers owners from future engine failures rather than leaving it to class action suits.

I think Williamhood mentioned KIA is doing that ? If true then so should Hyundai.

I don't like owing a car with a defective engine where I could possibly bear replacement costs and I'm sure many others don't as well.

But basically Hyundai lies, I don't see how anyone can soften or dispute that.
I think the biggest issue is that this company basically tries selling an alternative version of the automobile ownership experience.
Our car has all the stuff you want but at a lower price than the competition
Our car has a long warranty to protect you when things go wrong
Our car uses the newest technology so it's better than the competition

Essentially they played the same card that TMobile is playing with the cell phone market...we are different because we care.

But the truth is that Hyundai is a corporation just like their competition and only cares about profit. Their shareholders demand it. Anything that stands to decrease or heaven forbid take away that profit is a no no and cannot happen.

Those of us who bought Hyundais were effectively hustled. Because they are not any different from the competition, the warranty is next to impossible to use, and the tech is glitchy at best and defective at worst.

All we can do is vote with our wallets. Govt can fine them all day long but lawyers will ensure that they will never pay it from that profit. The next group of customers will in higher prices and decreased service.

However they have some serious headwinds against them especially here in the USA. They have no pickup truck, slipping market share, constrained capacity, tariffs on their imported product, a luxury brand that is nowhere near what it aspires to and a serious lack of managerial talent at the US HQ. If they dont address these issues soon, they will join the ranks of other dead brands or retreat from the US market altogether.

Oh and Kia is only a subsidiary of Hyundai. One that is growing more independent by the day. Would not surprise me if they bought themselves out from Hyundais control in the near future.


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Today I picked up my car with the new engine (at 76,552 miles) under recall SC147!

As promised, the Kia tech moved over all my engine mods (minus the HKS M40XL plugs, I was going to replace them soon as I had over 20K miles on them). On the drive home, when I got into it a little bit, I heard a loud boost leak. Upon inspection, they totally forgot to tighten one clamp (located top of the inter-cooler) and it popped off. No biggie. A thorough inspection by me leads me to believe they did a pretty good job and I'm pleased! Time will tell!

The other updates I did besides the mandatory Kia ECU update (which gives me now unlimited miles/unlimited time on the new engine) is the turbo oil line (SA300), the ACU wiring extension (SC165) and a new serpentine belt (replacing the original belt after 6.5 years). Including the free rental car (2019 Optima LX) for 11 days, I paid a total of $71.49 ($50.93 for the belt, $20.56 for gas in the rental car). Not too bad!!
 
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