Hyundai Forums banner

1 - 20 of 27 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Cranks but does not start. Below are some troubleshooting results. Any help appreciated. - My Resources, 2004 SantaFe Shop Manual, 2001-2006 Chilton Manual, Internet.

1. Battery is fully charged.

2. Fuel Cut Switch on Normal Position (Not Tripped)

3. Code P0335 - Crankshaft Position Sensor Malfunction - Cleared, does not return as a fauld, but it is again identified in code reader as pending.

4. Fuel pump noise in tank NOT HEARD when Ignition is turned to "ON".
4.1 Chilton says when ingnition is turned to "ON", the pump should operate for two seconds and turn off if Ignition is not turned to "Start".
4.2 When Ignition is turned to "ON", the fuel pump relay in engine compartment can be felt picking up (klick), and stay on as long as the Ignition is in the "ON" position. When Ignition is returned to the "OFF" position, the relay drops out, the click can be heard and felt with fingers.
4.3 Battery power can be measured in the fuel pump connetor 5 pin plug when disconnected from the tank. 11.5 V is measured on the middle pin, of the 3 top pins, in the connector. (my manuals do not show an electrical schematic of the fuel pump control circuit - poor quality manuals) The battery power on the middle pin of the top 3 connectors stays at 11.5 V for ~ 6 sec. after the Ignition is switched to "OFF".

Someone on this forum indicated that a failed Crankcase Position Sensor (Hyundai acronim CKP) will allow cranking of the engine but not Start.

I also read in the Chilton manual that if the Crankcase Position Sensor, CKP fails, the Power Control Module. PCM goes into limp mode and uses the Camshaft Position Sensor (Hyundai acronim CMP) to operate the engine in a set parameter, limiting RPM to around 3,000. This would get you to a shop for help.

By removing the top cover of the timing belt housing, the Crankcase Position Sensor is not visible. My timing belt looks in good condition, but I cannot see the balancing belt (which could have failed and damaged the Crankshaft Position Sensor). Drivebelt, crank and water pump pulleys along with the cover need removal to check physical condition of the Crankcase Position Sensor. This is a lot of work if the sensor is good.
*** Is there a test that one could perform to chech the condition of the sensor. Such as applying 12 Volts to the appropriate pin, connect ground and measure the output signal for the expected sine wave, as the engine is cranked? Again, the Hyudai manual fails me, the CKP connector has a triangular pin configuration, and the manual shows a flat configuration. The manual indicates verification of wire continuity between ECM and CKP but not CKP functionality.

At this piont, it seems that the fuel pump is faulty, however I cannot be sure. I have read too many threads where the pump, Crankcase position sensor and some other components were replaced and still the vehicle required repair by the dealer.

Does anyone have actual electrica wiring diagrams showing interconnection between ECU, PCM, and all sensors with their pins identified? Hyundai HMA Service site is identical to the Hyundai Service manual I alread have and it is lacking a lot of critial trouble shooting information.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
There is no spark to the plugs, but I did have the top timing belt cover off earlier for inspection and I did not see damage. However, after cranking the engine multiple times, noticed that 3 consecutive cogs from the belt were missing.





After extensive effort, I managed to get the lower cover off. The timing belt had only the three cogs missing. No apparent damage to the Crankcase Sensor or the Crankcase Sensor Plate. Everything seems to be in a normal condition with the exception of the three missing cogs from the timing belt.



At this time, I cannot tell if the belt had slipped, since I am unable to identify the crank shaft position relative to it’s reference. I see no Crankshaft reference point on either the sprocket or the engine housing.
I could use some help with identifying the crankshaft reference marks.



I can see the Cam markings on the sprockets as I aligned them with the housing markings above them by cranking the engine with a crank bar. The two Cams are in proper position relative to each other, and their respective reference points, on the engine housing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,978 Posts
You might want to consider changing water pump and put on a new CPS sensor.
Youve got it all apart no sense having to go back in again any time soon.

Fourgreen auto is good for Canadians to buy parts , our dealers often add 150-200 percent to parts
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,554 Posts
Replace ALL the expendibles while apart..

Timing belt
Balance belt
2 drive belts
Tensioner, DO NOT recycle the old part
Crank position sensor -- common fail part, acts up more than it fails

If you choose to change the water pump, toss in thermostat while coolant dumped... the water pump not come with gasket from Hyundai n box.. you need to buy front cover gasket and carefully cut the piece off that you need... $$$

Use the info at link to set all in time -> need help - Hyundai Forum - Hyundai Enthusiast Forums

With what little bit you have displayed in your photos,, the motor is in time from what I can see..
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Thanks for all the help.
I'm ordering parts today.
Will be replacing everything, all belts, pulleys, Tensioner, CPS and Plate, and Waterpump/Gasket.
The Alternator and Power Steering pump is still in place, so next task is to remove those.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,554 Posts
Ordering ?? We keep all that on the shelf as far as the timing belt and sensor replacement.. :) We may have the water pump too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Got some part prices from the Dealer, Local Aftermarket, and the Net.
To perform a proper job and replace all wear items (All belts, pulley, tensioner, water pump, CPS, etc) the Hyundai Dealer wants $950 tax incl. for the parts only.
After market part price is more reasonable but they only have Belts, CPS, and Tensioner available. Neither the Dealer nor Aftermarket sells a complete Timing Belt kit.

On line price is about half of the Dealer price if delivered to a US address (I’m in Canada near Buffalo). Delivery to Canada makes part prices higher along with heavy shipping charges + taxes. No better than local Aftermarket price.

So,
The vehicle is 7 years old with 113, 000 miles (180,000 Km), burning a liter of oil every 3000 miles (my oil change interval, using full synthetic), The gas gauge is erratic, AC has leaked this fall. Replaced Power Steering pump and PS Cooling line two years ago. Both front bearings changed at least once. All ball joints, tie rod ends replaced along with driver side CV shaft. Too unreliable and too costly even if I perform the repairs.

Do not know if the root cause of the “no start” problem is the Crankshaft Position Sensor. At this point of the investigation it appears that the CPS has failed and it’s possible that it may have multiple hidden failures. Hyundai OEM manual does not provide proper electrical schematics, so that at least I could test the CPS sensor.

Options

  • Sink a lot of money (replace all wear items) into a ~ $4500 value vehicle. Drive it for a few more years and hope no major component fail and it passes emission test.

  • Replace only the Timing Belt and Crankshaft Position Sensor. Check if engine starts.

  • If engine starts:
    • disassemble again and replace all remaining parts (belts, pulleys, tensioner, water pump).
    • Trade in on a new vehicle (would not be Hyundai).
    • Sell it.

  • If engine does not start……..???
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,978 Posts
The Canadian dealer parts prices are crazy I know.

On ebay or their on line site FourGreen Auto sell a timing belt kit with the water pump for a reasonable price; less than half our dealer. You could also do a Buffalo road trip and pick up from over there. You need part numbers to search Fourgreen the look up feature sucks. Or email with your serial number and they can quote you prices.

Getting reasonable parts prices here is a pain I know. Only local guy any good is called Hotspot Auto sells Wagner Gates etc at good prices.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
178 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,554 Posts
After
(I’m in Canada near Buffalo).

Ok, so call Northtowne in Buffalo, or the dealer on Grand Island ??, and go over and get your parts... not like you probably not shopped the outlet stores in Niagra Falls USA and took stuff back..

I used to shoot with Canadians in Tonawanda NY at Sportsman Club who always picked up stuff at shoot match and took it back with them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
So, I found a Crank Position Sensor and Timing belt in stock at a local parts supply. The Crank Position Sensor was $67 + tax, made by Beck Arnley.

Removed the timing belt tensioner and the timing belt. Discovered two unexpected conditions. Aside from the three consecutive cogs missing from the timing belt, near by there was another section with four cogs missing. Also, the valve spring tension moved the Cams away from their reference points on the valve cover.





Loss of Crank position signal can occur in one of two ways, Crank Position Sensor failure or improper gap between the sensor and the actuating plate. I measured the gap at one point as 0.056". I cannot find specification for this in the Hyundai OEM manual or in Chilton. I seem to recall reading somewhere that a good gap was somewhere between 0.040" and 0.060".

** Anyone know what the acceptable gap should be between the Crank Position Sensor and the Actuating Plate??**

I would like to check the position of the CPS actuating plate with a dial indicator, but this means I have to turn the crank shaft and to do that I must mount the new belt.

So, I compressed the belt tensioner, installed it and then found that it I would have to hold both the intake and exhaust cam in its proper position while installing the belt. Unfortunately, I ran out of time and assistants tonight. So we will get back at it tomorrow night.

Any advise as to the best way to mount the new Timing belt while keeping all cams in the proper position??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,554 Posts
Removed the timing belt tensioner and the timing belt. Discovered two unexpected conditions. Aside from the three consecutive cogs missing from the timing belt, near by there was another section with four cogs missing.
Happens with aged toothed belts.. be glad you did not lose enough for engine to crash and burn

Also, the valve spring tension moved the Cams away from their reference points on the valve cover.
Normal.. you do not have the Hyundai tool to hold the cogs in alignment,, this is where you should have paint mark a tooth on belt to each cog, then transpose the marks to the new belt, and install new belt in same fashion as removed,, cant goof, the belt put back where marked originally.



Loss of Crank position signal can occur in one of two ways, Crank Position Sensor failure
Correct answer... it is a HALL EFFECT sensor



or improper gap between the sensor and the actuating plate. I measured the gap at one point as 0.056". I cannot find specification for this in the Hyundai OEM manual or in Chilton. I seem to recall reading somewhere that a good gap was somewhere between 0.040" and 0.060".

** Anyone know what the acceptable gap should be between the Crank Position Sensor and the Actuating Plate??**
Not adjustable.. it all set with the blade to pass the HALL EFFECT pickup and feed back is a square wave to PCM.. sensor has source voltage, ground, and feedback to PCM

I would like to check the position of the CPS actuating plate with a dial indicator, but this means I have to turn the crank shaft and to do that I must mount the new belt.
Dont spin your wheels

So, I compressed the belt tensioner, installed it and then found that it I would have to hold both the intake and exhaust cam in its proper position while installing the belt. Unfortunately, I ran out of time and assistants tonight. So we will get back at it tomorrow night.
Install belt first, then install the tensioner... DO NOT recycle the old tensioner.. REPLACE IT

Any advise as to the best way to mount the new Timing belt while keeping all cams in the proper position??
Follow the link ---> need help - Hyundai Forum - Hyundai Enthusiast Forums
System says message too short to submit......
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Ok, I can only take a couple of hours at a time working on this thing. I don’t know if Hyundai Engineers were ignorant or arrogant when designing this vehicle to make it so ridiculously complicated to change out a Crank Shaft Position sensor, when many other manufacturer have it mounted it so that it can be changed out in about ten minutes.

I checked the gap between the CPS and actuator plate and found that it was between 0.052” and 0.058”. I checked this because I was concerned that the belt cogs when they separated from the belt, could have been dragged between the sensor and the actuator plate, thereby bending the plate, which could then rub against the sensor. Because it takes a great deal of effort to remove the power steering pump and bracket to remove the CPS, I mounted all belts (marked cam position on belt) and cranked the engine over. It did not start, but it sounded like it was going to start and then it stopped. Checked the engine code and the CPS failure code showed up again.

I read somewhere that if the Crank Shaft Position sensor failed, the engine could run using the Cam Position Sensor, but would run rough and limited to below three thousand RPM. Has anyone had an engine that ran with a failed Crank Position sensor?

Tonight I removed all belts again, and after great difficulty, removed the Power Steering pump and mounting bracket. Removed the old Crank Position Sensor and installed the new sensor (it was not designed with replacement in mind, I feel for Hyundai Techs).

Tomorrow I will re-install all belts and see if it starts.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,554 Posts
P/S pump and bracket is 6 easy to get to bolts.. nothing to it.

Typical belts and sensor time for me is not quite 2hr maybe, I dont break leg to do it.. though a whole lot easier if you have a rack and know what you doing helps.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,899 Posts
Ok, I can only take a couple of hours at a time working on this thing. I don’t know if Hyundai Engineers were ignorant or arrogant when designing this vehicle to make it so ridiculously complicated to change out a Crank Shaft Position sensor, when many other manufacturer have it mounted it so that it can be changed out in about ten minutes.

I checked the gap between the CPS and actuator plate and found that it was between 0.052” and 0.058”. I checked this because I was concerned that the belt cogs when they separated from the belt, could have been dragged between the sensor and the actuator plate, thereby bending the plate, which could then rub against the sensor.



"""You just bought the wrong engine. If you had bought the 2.7, you could have changed out the cps externally. If you even suspect the actuator plate(blade), just replace it. I think I remember where it only cost around $12 or so."""
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Problem Resolved

The vehicle went back on the road a couple of days ago. Thank you everyone who provided assistance.

Sbr711 you were right, it was the Crankshaft Position Sensor. Root cause of failure is not known, could have been random sensor failure, failure due to damage when timing belt cogs were falling off the belt, or wire harness wearing and grounding against engine.



After removing the timing belt again, I lost my help to reposition and hold the camshafts while installing and aligning the belt from below. So, I made my own special tool to hold the cams. This made it a lot easier to install the timing belt by myself. Also, I am getting much faster at task execution.





So now the engine is running with only the failed components replaced. Question is do I purchase all the remaining parts (belt, pulleys, water pump) and perform a proper repair, or get rid of the vehicle.

Current Value $4K-$K

Odometer reading 118,000 miles, 190,000 Km
Engine burns a quart of oil every 3,000 miles.
AC leaked this fall.
Power Steering Pump and fluid cooling line replaced two years ago.
Original Fuel Pump. (Tank cover is soaked with Fluid film and staying wet, screw should come out easy)
Original Radiator and water pump
Front Wheel bearings replaced with SKF bearings
Ball joints, tie rod ends, replaced with Moog.
New front rotors and brake pads.
Gas gauge sometimes erratic (showing tank empty when half full or lower)
Ventilation Fan resistor solder opened (re-soldered, ok now)
LCD Odometer reading connection issue (some digits sometimes not showing)
Need four new tires.
Rear hatch locking mechanism cleaned and lubed. It became stuck
Driver Door catch (hold from swinging out too far) failed due to flattened roller (was able to replace roller with a piece of drill shaft)
This engine prematurely wears out Power Steering and Alternator belts.

I like everything about the vehicle, except how unreliable it is. Any feedback as to other premature or likely failures on this vehicle would be appreciated.
 
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
Top