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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I keep looking for that function and not finding it. It's remarkable to me that a hybrid manufacturer would sell a vehicle without some means to force EV operation only. I'm pretty sure everybody else does this. Why no dedicated EV mode for the Tucson hybrid?
 

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I have owned 2 hybrids, a Ford CMax and a Camry. Neither had a dedicated EV mode. I believe the reason is that the battery on hybrids is quite small compared to the battery on a plug in hybrid or and EV and the small battery simply doesn't have the power to provide acceptable performance over a range driving conditions.. Plug in hybrids do have an EV mode.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I test drove a Toyota Sienna hybrid which had an EV mode as does the Highlander hybrid as does the Rav4. It's an important function. If you just want to move the car out of the garage or a short distance, you don't want the engine to start. That's just hard on the engine and wastes fuel. Today, I drove up 6 miles of steep road to a ski hill. The engine faithfully charged the battery all the way up and then the battery had no capacity to store charge for the downhill run. That's no good. I would like to have drawn down the charge manually as far as possible on the way up. EV mode is not an option AFAIAC.
 

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Probably because it would be dangerous to even have that option.

Do you know how slow a 4K pound Tucson would be in EV only mode? That's only 90hp. :oops:

The slowest vehicle I've ever driven, which I considered to be downright dangerous in some situations due to lack of ability to quickly get up to speed was a Chevy S10. It was just over 3000lbs and 120hp, giving it a weight/power ratio of 25lbs/hp. In EV mode a Tucson PHEV Limited is likely about 44lbs/hp, dangerously poky. For comparison, most Americans are used to around 15-20lbs/hp performance, and the base Crosstrek with the underpowered 2.0 liter that everyone rants about being super slow is just over 21lbs/hp, so in EV mode the Tucson would be the speed of a base Crosstrek towing another Crosstrek, lol! And that's the more powerful PHEV, the regular hybrid is only 60hp!

Vehicles that are meant to be driven in EV mode like the BMW i3 (which isn't all that quick on the highway to be honest from when I drove one) have 180hp electric motors motivating 3.3K lbs, which is ~18lbs/hp or what falls into the "average" range Americans are used to. Hybrids should be driven like hybrids, with both gas and electric working together automatically.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Sorry JASmith. That explanation doesn't wash at all. In the first place, all the modern Toyota hybrids have a selectable EV only mode. In the 2nd place, All PHEVs that I know of have a selectable EV only mode. One of the reasons I bought a hybrid was because I have a one-car garage and I'm continually shuffling my motorcycle and car around. I want to be able to pull the car in and out of the garage without starting the engine. A cold start is really hard on an engine aside from the gas it wastes. A needless cold start infuriates me and this car starts as soon as I back the car out and select park. I thought it might be starting to support cabin heat, but if I turn the climate control off it still cold starts needlessly. The lack of a dedicated EV mode is the most glaring fault of the car AFAIAC.
 

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Sorry JASmith. That explanation doesn't wash at all. In the first place, all the modern Toyota hybrids have a selectable EV only mode.
My sister's virtually new Toyota Corolla hybrid certainly doesn't have an EV mode. It has an "eco mode", and it does stay on battery power up to ~15mph which would let you creep out of a garage.
In the 2nd place, All PHEVs that I know of have a selectable EV only mode.
You don't have a PHEV though, do you? These aren't available to anyone yet as far as I know. The Crosstrek PHEV doesn't have an EV mode, and like the Corolla turns on the ICE somewhere around 15mph as well, as it just doesn't have enough power and pretty sure it just has a dummy light that lets you know when its operating in EV mode but it rightfully decides on its own when all the conditions are met that it can do so. The plugin Tucson probably won't have a EV forced mode, but would be able to operate under a wider envelope in EV only mode using its own onboard logic especially if you stay in its similar eco mode.


This shows that it like many other PHEVs is just going to have a notification that you're in EV mode, but not a specific mode that prevents the ICE from turning on when needed for the beforementioned reasons:
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I can't think of a single regular hybrid that has a forced EV-mode, but if you go through the user manual they likely have a section about what specific conditions need to be met for it to operate in EV only. The regular hybrid has a very small battery so maybe the charge wasn't high enough or something as simple as the air-conditioner being on in its last state turns the ICE on.
 

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Drove a Chevy Volt a couple of years ago. 50 miles range electric only before the ICE was needed. Great car....nobody bought them.....gone.
 

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Drove a Chevy Volt a couple of years ago. 50 miles range electric only before the ICE was needed. Great car....nobody bought them.....gone.
Poor reliability though according to Consumer Reports, and its basically a small Chevy Cruze. It was much more expensive than a Cruze, yet still looked like one, and the market was shifting to crossovers at the time. If they had figured out how to reduce the cost, increased reputation for reliability, and had made it a slightly larger crossover like the Chevy Trailblazer, I bet it would have sold much better. The pure EV Bolt seems to be selling well for them though.
 

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Poor reliability though according to Consumer Reports, and its basically a small Chevy Cruze. It was much more expensive than a Cruze, yet still looked like one, and the market was shifting to crossovers at the time. If they had figured out how to reduce the cost, increased reputation for reliability, and had made it a slightly larger crossover like the Chevy Trailblazer, I bet it would have sold much better. The pure EV Bolt seems to be selling well for them though.
I understand and agree with your opinion of the Chevy Volt. The one I drove was small inside [battery took some room], and it did not have the feel of high quality.
What the Volt got right was the electric only / ICE ratio. I think for most people it was very useful. Most city dwellers and commuters would find the electric range sufficient for %99 of their driving and yet the car was still capable of long distance driving using the engine. The car I drove belonged to a friend of a friend and he used the electric only mode for just about everything, so much so, that he was worried the gas would go stale and once a month he made sure to use the ICE. In my opinion, an excellent power train.
 

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Yeah, people tend to be specialized with their knowledge. Once you throw out terms like parallel hybrid and serial hybrid and battery watt-hours to non-car people they start staring blankly into space... explaining how the Volt was not just a regular hybrid and worth the extra $$$ was apparently an uphill battle, and even many salesman at the dealerships didn't really get it. I think I've mentioned it elsewhere on the forum, but I think its closest living counterpart is the Honda Clarity as it also has a high output electric motor.

That's going to be a real marketing challenge, as with PHEVs I noticed a lot of people are only looking at range, which has to do with battery size, and not electric motor horsepower to note how likely it is the gas engine is going to have to help out depending on throttle/speed especially since some PHEVs can only drive 15mph before the gas engine kicks in. The Clarity and Volt have more powerful electric motors than they do gasoline engines/generators IIRC, and the Volt I think you can even floor it 100% without the gas engine ever turning on, whereas the Clarity I think you can almost floor it but the accelerator has a little step in it and after that it kicks on the ICE.

I'll be interesting to see what speed and throttle you'll be able to give the Tucson before gas kicks in, but I'm guessing the existing Ioniq PHEV will give a hint on that. It is quite aerodynamic and on low rolling resistance tires, and can do highway speeds w/ EV only, but only if you accelerate quite slowly up to that speed. C&D got~60% of the advertised electric range on the highway, so guessing we'll see a bit more impact from speed on the Tucson PHEV and maybe get 15 miles.
 

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It looks like the Toyota models OP is mentioning is the Prime models which are more comparable to the upcoming Tucson Plug-in Hybrid. The regular Hybrid models for both Toyota and Hyundai have tiny 1.x kWh batteries that will not do much at all on its own. I can move my Tucson up a spot on my driveway and the ICE does not kick in, but that's about it. The Toyota Rav4 Prime has an 18kWh battery and the Tucson Plug-in will have a 13kWh battery and definitely seems like it might have an EV only mode.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
It looks like the Toyota models OP is mentioning is the Prime models which are more comparable to the upcoming Tucson Plug-in Hybrid. The regular Hybrid models for both Toyota and Hyundai have tiny 1.x kWh batteries that will not do much at all on its own. I can move my Tucson up a spot on my driveway and the ICE does not kick in, but that's about it. The Toyota Rav4 Prime has an 18kWh battery and the Tucson Plug-in will have a 13kWh battery and definitely seems like it might have an EV only mode.
The Toyota HEV (not PHEV) models with selectable EV mode are the Sienna hybrid, the Highlander hybrid, the RAV4 hybrid, Auris hybrid, and Prius hybrid. There may be other models as well. The Accord hybrid has a selectable EV mode as does the CR-V hybrid and Insight hybrid. There may be other models. The point is that these hybrid makers include that function because there are many times, when traveling short distances, that customers need to inhibit the engine from starting. I think that hyundai wants to take control over the engine starting completely away from the customer because they are overly paranoid about customers discharging the traction battery too far and bricking the battery. If so, that's a shame because it's a useful function and a critically useful function if you shuffle vehicles around in your garage often. My Tucson starts every time when backing out of the garage. I place it in park in the driveway and boom, the engine starts without fail.:mad:
 

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Do you know how slow a 4K pound Tucson would be in EV only mode? That's only 90hp. :oops:

The slowest vehicle I've ever driven, which I considered to be downright dangerous in some situations due to lack of ability to quickly get up to speed was a Chevy S10. It was just over 3000lbs and 120hp,
HP doesn't measure power. There are 1000's of 80,000 lb truck and trailers flying down our highways running @ 200lbs per HP and while they may be dangerous it's not because of lack of power.

Your S10 was probably pokey but it only had 140ft-lbs of torque max, where the PHEV electric motor to develop 90 HP @ 2100 RPM needs to be developing around 225ft-lbs of torque, and match that with a paddle controlled 6 speed I think you will be surprised how quickly it will get out of the way.
 

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HP doesn't measure power.
Its literally a measurement of power, lol!
"horsepower hôrs′pou″ər N. A unit of power in the US Customary System, equal to 745.7 watts or 33,000 foot-pounds per minute."
Your S10 was probably pokey but it only had 140ft-lbs of torque max, where the PHEV electric motor to develop 90 HP @ 2100 RPM needs to be developing around 225ft-lbs of torque, and match that with a paddle controlled 6 speed I think you will be surprised how quickly it will get out of the way.
I would be very surprised, as it goes against everything I learned in school as an Engineer. Horsepower is a measure of how quickly work can be done, whereas torque is merely measuring twisting strength. With the right gearing I can exert thousands of ftlbs with a mere hand-crank or even move a 18 wheeler down a driveway, but that work is going to be done over a very long period of time since I'm not going to be able to output even a horsepower. In short, horsepower wins races, not torque.
 

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Its literally a measurement of power, lol!
"horsepower hôrs′pou″ər N. A unit of power in the US Customary System, equal to 745.7 watts or 33,000 foot-pounds per minute."
Using your description there are 3 metric's time, distance and force. Horsepower is a measurement of work. Lets describe a theoretical turbine that produces flat line torque of 10 lb-ft the torque/force, @ 52.5 rpm = .1 HP, 525 rpm = 1 HP, 5252 rpm = 10 HP, 52520 rpm = 100 HP, and finally, 525200 rpm = 1000 hp all with the same 10 lb-ft of force/power/torque. Distance and time aren't the power component of horsepower.

hand-crank or even move a 18 wheeler down a driveway, but that work is going to be done over a very long period of time since I'm not going to be able to output even a horsepower.
Those loaded 18 wheelers running Cummins 12 or 15-liter engines are producing around 400+/- HP but 2000+ lb-ft of torque. How about this, bolt 2 Mazda RX8 engines (each making 260 hp @ 8500 rpm even if we combine their torque to 320 lb-ft) put them in a loaded 18 wheeler, and see how they fare going over the Grapevine LOL. In your hand-crank example, while it will take a very long time if you had more torque/force to provide the time would diminished like getting a car moving using 225 lb-ft of torque.

In short, horsepower wins races, not torque.
I can agree with that, of course, those engines are spinning around 15k so that horsepower comes with only 300lb-ft of torque. But here's the thing - I don't think I'll be racing my new Tucson. This started because you didn't feel the 90HP electric motor was adequate for city driving and I pointed that 90HP came with 225 lb-fh of torque made up for the low HP. the same way the 369 lb-ft of torque makes the 180 HP GMC 4X4 diesel driveable - but stiil not for racing.
 

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Horsepower wins races if the engine revs are kept within a narrow band. Yes we all drive like that don't we. What makes a good engine is the area under the torque curve. The broader and higher the curve the faster the car is over that range. Tesla is a great example of achieving it.
 

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Using your description
Its not my description, its copied and pasted from a dictionary... and no horsepower isn't a measurement of work, its a measurement of the rate at which work is done or work over time. In automotive terms, its describing how quickly you can move a certain weight down the road.
Those loaded 18 wheelers running Cummins 12 or 15-liter engines are producing around 400+/- HP but 2000+ lb-ft of torque.
Those 18 wheelers are extremely slow, so why are you bringing them up as a metric? A loaded 18 wheeler takes several miles and as much as several minutes to get to 60mph, and while your passenger vehicle can stop from that speed in about 115 feet on average a loaded truck will take at least a football field as a rule of thumb or three times that. Semi drivers are set to such rigorous standards because they can't do anything quickly and rely on a lot of planning and signaling accordingly.
How about this, bolt 2 Mazda RX8 engines (each making 260 hp @ 8500 rpm even if we combine their torque to 320 lb-ft) put them in a loaded 18 wheeler, and see how they fare going over the Grapevine LOL.
I don't know why you are laughing, because it would make absolutely no difference with appropriate gearing, as horsepower is horsepower. The reason they don't use such high revving peaky engines has to do with efficiency and durability. A tiny engine can't sustain 8.5K RPM for very long periods of time, nor is it likely fuel efficient to do so.
This started because you didn't feel the 90HP electric motor was adequate for city driving and I pointed that 90HP came with 225 lb-fh of torque made up for the low HP. the same way the 369 lb-ft of torque makes the 180 HP GMC 4X4 diesel driveable - but stiil not for racing.
Off the line in first gear, you're going to feel that torque because it takes some speed to rev the engine up to where its making peak horsepower, but once you're rolling your acceleration potential is going to be measured in horsepower, and 90hp motivating near 4000lbs of vehicle is going to be painfully slow such as my example of going up an entrance ramp or passing on the highway.
charlescrown said:
What makes a good engine is the area under the torque curve.
Area under the horsepower curve, not torque curve, but yes a broader curve matters especially right off the line, but 4000lb/90hp is still a very high weight to power ratio no matter how lazily of an RPM you can use that power. Oh well, some will only learn through experience so when you get your plugin hybrid do us a favor and upload a video on how fast you can accelerate from say 40mph to 75mph on an onramp using only the 90hp electric motor. Teslas ARE fast, because Teslas have over 800hp.
 

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I don't know why they don't make a hybrid vehicle with a small battery [ 60 miles range ] and a small gas engine [ maybe 30 hp] . The battery could take care of %99 of daily driving and when on a long trip the engine could keep the battery charged. Highway cruising doesn't use much hp [ maybe 25 hp]. The battery would momentarily provide the surge of power for passing. The engine would start automatically when the battery became discharged and supplement cabin heat. You could charge the battery at home and use the car all electric most of the time. On a long trip if the battery became discharged you could leave the small engine running while you stop for food etc.
 
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