Hyundai Forums banner

1 - 20 of 25 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,284 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Slashing three models, including the Volt, I've heard.


You would have thought after we bailed their sorry @$$ out the last time they would get with the program. They say the big sellers are trucks and SUVs and are going to concentrate there. Ford said the same thing, cut the Taurus and 500 twins, but kept the Focus and the Fusion, for the time being. I see Fusions all over the place here. GM is cutting the Cruze (which has been in competition with Hyundai since it hit the streets) and the Impala. Not a surprise there...look in the manual for how to change headlight bulbs and it says "Bring the car to the dealer" because they have to remove the front fascia and headlight to get to the bulb. What genius came up with that one?


GM has always been the highest profit for the lowest cost. Well, at least since the late 80's. That's why we had to bail them out in the first place.


Another thing they seem to forget: when gas is "low" (comparatively) big vehicles sell. When fuel costs increase, smaller cars do a lot better. With the Saudis threatening to cut production, will GM get caught with their pants down...again?


It's like the Japanese at the Battle of Midway: they kept arming their planes incorrectly and lost the battle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,813 Posts
We had a very famous race with a huge following. It's called the V8 Bathurst 1000 and consisted of Ford and Holden (GM) and now they don't make a car to race. It's now cars like Nissan, Volvo etc. The Holden Cruze (if it's the same car) is an absolute piece of crap and buying one is the best way to loose a fortune if you trade it in. No they don't learn.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,978 Posts
I think in the seventies they had some of the best trucks and cars. But they lost their way.

What really bugged me was they liked to bring out stuff like torx screws first, that made non dealer service difficult.

I have friends who work in the Oshawa plant they are shutting down; they built cars there before there was a GM (Buick cars with Fisher autobodies). Vehicles were build on the site for almost a hundred years. I went through the plant in 2003 for a tour, when there was 12,000 people on two assembly lines. Shame really, lots of people losing good jobs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,134 Posts
Well who is being taught a lesson here - I think GM has played this out pretty well, they were bailed out by the US taxpayer after the 2009 financial crash, the US buying a big chuck of stock - which was sold at a $10B loss - yes that's 10 billion some yrs later, with GM at the time sitting on I believe close to $20B cash reserves, but GM asked the US gov to sell out because it was impacting sales because buyers didn't approve of the US being part owners. And thru the 2009 chapter 11 process GM was able to shed a lot of other financial and contractual obligations.
Now it would appear they want to both get out of the car biz as well as shuttering some older plants - several which it so happens are in the heartland - the area hardest hit by the 2009 crisis.
Likely see more operations headed to Mexico and overseas, while GM invests in electric and self driving cars - probably reaping tax benefits there as opposed to sustaining aging plants and union employees.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
GM doesn't learn ..

Well who is being taught a lesson here - I think GM has played this out pretty well, they were bailed out by the US taxpayer after the 2009 financial crash, the US buying a big chuck of stock - which was sold at a $10B loss - yes that's 10 billion some yrs later, with GM at the time sitting on I believe close to $20B cash reserves, but GM asked the US gov to sell out because it was impacting sales because buyers didn't approve of the US being part owners. And thru the 2009 chapter 11 process GM was able to shed a lot of other financial and contractual obligations.
Now it would appear they want to both get out of the car biz as well as shuttering some older plants - several which it so happens are in the heartland - the area hardest hit by the 2009 crisis.
Likely see more operations headed to Mexico and overseas, while GM invests in electric and self driving cars - probably reaping tax benefits there as opposed to sustaining aging plants and union employees.

Great Posts, guys ! About car building operations exiting North America : The short-sighted reasoning on the part of GM (as well as the other automakers) is what I find hardest to believe.. They go for the instant gratification/cost cutting approach of transplanting manufacturing jobs outside the states, in the relentless pursuit of profit, of course. Gotta make the board of directors happy. But what they fail to see, is that plan will cost all of us, as well as themselves, plenty. Because the workers in the foreign plants toil away for rock bottom wages every day, most of them building a product they cannot possibly afford to buy (duh ?) how long can this stupidity be sustainable ?
The effects are so obvious and far-reaching.. Why can't those corporate decision makers see this, plain as day ? Each auto manufacturing plant job generates so many (other) jobs, beyond just the ones within that plant.. suppliers, vendors, transportation, it goes on and on. It is a known fact, each job within one auto plant generates numerous others, outside those walls.
Many, if not most of those "ripple" effect jobs pay a pretty good standard of living, and our entire society benefits from it. Those thousands of folks are the ones with enough disposable income to buy a **** of a lot of the cars they happen to be building, not to mention the consumer goods and houses they buy, and basically everything, from A to Z.. The billions $$$ that is generated by all of this is the life blood of our entire economic structure. Even the many auto jobs that are now paid at a lesser wage level (lower tier) still generate valuable economic benefit, let's keep them in the states !
The industrial heartland will suffer a terrible hit, from the loss of these great jobs, the economy will never rebound from such a loss, at least not in our lifetime.. as the number of middle class jobs erodes, they take everyone else down along with them.
It is true, demand for conventional passenger cars has gone away from the marketplace, in favor of SUVs and light trucks. All the presidential and union clamoring to make em keep the plants open (which build cars that are now unprofitable) will get us nowhere. Instead of just shutting these car plants down (which are so vital to so many people) they should be pushing towards converting them to building SUVs and/or trucks, which are selling just fine and which generate more profit per unit than cars, anyhow. We have all those skilled, experienced car builders already here who will spend most of the wages wherever they earn them !
After the huge money commitment that we all made (as taxpayers) for the so called "bailout" those automakers owe it to us to convert those assembly plants over, and build the profit generating products at home, in USA and Canada. Instead of China, or Mexico, or wherever
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,134 Posts
Well when GM says they want to invest in self driving cars and electric cars - it's not hard to guess that they want to play in the Chinese market - which is now the largest ww in terms of volume and electric cars. More than likely the majority of these electric vehicles will be built in China, GM already does well in China with Buicks being a popular up market model and the Envision I believe is the 1st Chinese built auto from the american makers being imported to the US market. More and more cars and trucks are being built in Mexico but I'm thinking GM really wants to be better positioned in China and build more vehicles there. Not sure how this will play out politically, but likely the american worker will be on the losing end of it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,284 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
I think in the seventies they had some of the best trucks and cars. But they lost their way.

What really bugged me was they liked to bring out stuff like torx screws first, that made non dealer service difficult.

I have friends who work in the Oshawa plant they are shutting down; they built cars there before there was a GM (Buick cars with Fisher autobodies). Vehicles were build on the site for almost a hundred years. I went through the plant in 2003 for a tour, when there was 12,000 people on two assembly lines. Shame really, lots of people losing good jobs.



They're shutting Oshawa down!?! Indeed, that facility has been there for a LONG time.


My BiL/SiL live in Oshawa and when I first married my first wife they were living in an apartment building across the street and you could sit on the balcony and watch the cars coming out. Sure was an interesting place if you wanted to see what GM's new models were going to look like! ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,284 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Well who is being taught a lesson here - I think GM has played this out pretty well, they were bailed out by the US taxpayer after the 2009 financial crash, the US buying a big chuck of stock - which was sold at a $10B loss - yes that's 10 billion some yrs later, with GM at the time sitting on I believe close to $20B cash reserves, but GM asked the US gov to sell out because it was impacting sales because buyers didn't approve of the US being part owners. And thru the 2009 chapter 11 process GM was able to shed a lot of other financial and contractual obligations.
Now it would appear they want to both get out of the car biz as well as shuttering some older plants - several which it so happens are in the heartland - the area hardest hit by the 2009 crisis.
Likely see more operations headed to Mexico and overseas, while GM invests in electric and self driving cars - probably reaping tax benefits there as opposed to sustaining aging plants and union employees.

But....they are killing the Volt! Looks like getting OUT of the electric car business.


And, indeed. The government bought up GM stock for $22-25 a share, and GM 'paid us back' by buying it back at $11 a share...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,284 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
oh I'm hearing a lot of Genesis models can be had on the cheap, not sure a Sonata would cut the mustard.



Why not? They race Camrys.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,134 Posts
But....they are killing the Volt! Looks like getting OUT of the electric car business.


And, indeed. The government bought up GM stock for $22-25 a share, and GM 'paid us back' by buying it back at $11 a share...
I kind of hold whoever in the US gov structured the GM deal responsible - it should have had provisions for GM paying back the original amount if they returned to profitability - which they did as at one time iirc they had close to $20b in cash .

I read that the volt was never planned to be a long term vehicle, and just saw this from bloomberg going a bit deeper into GM strategy - which mentions what I thought would be true - GMs plans for China.

www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-11-26/gm-unplugs-chevy-volt-but-electric-vehicles-aren-t-dead
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,134 Posts
Why not? They race Camrys.
could be an opportunity for Hyundai if they choose to go there, although I read NASCAR itself doesn't command the attention it once did.

I've always been a fan of F1 and when I lived in NY state went to a number of grand prix races there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
GM doesn't learn

What is NASCAR going to do when both Ford and GM quit making cars?
NASCAR Truck will carry on, is my guess..
Of course, the whole NASCAR parade seems to fade out towards being irrelevant, in my opinion. (yawn) Those race cars have absolutely nothing in common with a stock automobile, like the early days. Race on Sunday, sell cars on Monday. But that could be a different thread. (maybe it has been brought up before ?)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
Bail out and volt

I kind of hold whoever in the US gov structured the GM deal responsible - it should have had provisions for GM paying back the original amount if they returned to profitability - which they did as at one time iirc they had close to $20b in cash .

I read that the volt was never planned to be a long term vehicle, and just saw this from bloomberg going a bit deeper into GM strategy - which mentions what I thought would be true - GMs plans for China.

www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-11-26/gm-unplugs-chevy-volt-but-electric-vehicles-aren-t-dead
I absolutely agree, dtech, lack of adequate payback guarantees was a ridiculous oversight in that whole deal, on the part of the government. If they have the money to spend billions creating new plants in places such as China, they have the money to reimburse the taxpayers who bailed them out first of all. GM ought to be ashamed.
Great article, I went in and read it, very informative. Bloomberg does a great job.
The Volt platform gave GM a venue to get a worthwhile hybrid out there, but it probably was obsolete already when it hit the show room, with so much engineering being focused worldwide on alternative auto power . I'm not sure how successful it was considered to be, (depends on who you ask) or how much money it made, but the complexity and $$$ of building a hybrid car is more than it costs to build an electric one anyhow, plus the batteries are getting better too (longer range) so fully electric becomes more feasible.
The Volt has been built at Detroit Hamtramck plant, which is one of the closures to take place, so that is a sad note..
The Bolt, on the other hand, being fully electric powered, might represent the future a bit more in GMs lineup, but who knows how long that product cycle will be ? Again, the engineering becomes so rapidly dated..
At least the Bolt is still being built in the States at least for now (GM Orion plant, Michigan) but I would not be surprised if the next GM electric car platform is built in China.
Companies with even deeper pockets than GM are throwing massive development effort into electric car technology as we speak.. And then, of course there are the autonomous vehicles. Incredible amounts of investment money is being spent on that category, by companies such as Uber and Geely, among others. Regardless of where all these products are developed, the question our government ought to be asking is this : Where will they be built ?
I want Trump to call out GM on this, have a congressional hearing or whatever. As for the foreign owned automakers, many of them do have at least some of their manufacturing in North America, as we know. Thank goodness (including Hyundai, of course)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,284 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
could be an opportunity for Hyundai if they choose to go there, although I read NASCAR itself doesn't command the attention it once did.

I've always been a fan of F1 and when I lived in NY state went to a number of grand prix races there.

Same here, but at one time technology was erasing driver skill. They stopped that, but it's creeping in again. Same with CART/IndyCar.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
Well who is being taught a lesson here - I think GM has played this out pretty well, they were bailed out by the US taxpayer after the 2009 financial crash, the US buying a big chuck of stock - which was sold at a $10B loss

There were thieves all over who stole TARP money. Mitt Romney's wife, for instance, availed herself of a crooked deal with Saganaw that allowed her to walk away with 20 million in TARP taxpayer dollars, which she immediately put in a tax shelter off the coast of France.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,813 Posts
They also did a number on the Australian Government bailing them out when they threatened to shut shop and a couple of years later they did just that. No money paid back.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,223 Posts
But....they are killing the Volt! Looks like getting OUT of the electric car business.
Looks can be deceiving. :grin2: They announced going 100 percent electric over a year ago.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/gm-going-all-electric-will-ditch-gas-diesel-powered-cars-n806806

General Motors plans to go 100 percent electric, the Detroit automaker announced Monday.
GM currently offers one extended-range electric vehicle, the Chevrolet Bolt EV, but will add two others within 18 months, said Executive Vice President Mark Reuss, with “at least 20” to be in the line-up by 2023. In addition, the company is developing a new truck platform powered by hydrogen fuel cells, dubbed Surus, short for Silent Utility Rover Universal Superstructure.
GM's goal is to abandon the internal combustion engine entirely. At some yet-unspecified point, all of its products will draw power either from batteries or hydrogen.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,134 Posts
ok - watching the national news with a bit covering the typical dog and pony show - Ms Barra called before the US congress - there was mention of this pending legislation :

https://itep.org/new-legislation-would-end-tax-incentives-to-move-jobs-and-profits-offshore/

About 30 yrs too late, IMO . Why would tax incentives ever existed for US firms to move operations out of the country ? Maybe because CEOs get to fatten their bank accounts by closing US factories and laying off the workers. Yes it's a global economy but providing incentives (tax breaks) for offshoring via the US tax code ?

At the time GM was bailed out in 2009 the decision was justified by saying if they failed the cost of losing the US jobs would be vastly greater than the bailout package (likely true) - but was the action only a delay to what is happening going forward ?
 
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
Top