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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Had a small rattle on the way to work yesterday, barely audible over even low volume of NPR. Decide I need to probably take it in sometime this week, then at lunch driving back, and lose power so I drive let it roll off the road onto a parking lot. It wouldn't start, had battery but it just didn't really seem like the starter was engaging.

I called up the road assistance and they sent out a tow truck really pretty painlessly. It got tot the dealership and they got me a rental quick. So up to this point I am pretty at ease that it would be a simple deal, seemed to me like it could have been something with the alternator because of the sound it was making to try to start.

Fast forward to today, they call me up and say engine is seized up sounds like it will be a whole new engine, they want a record of all the oil changes in between because only my first was with them. I can only get to the last one, the ones before I don't have and the company that did it is a pos kind of place and doesn't keep records over a month.

I am getting worried based on the stuff this guy is saying that Hyundai is going to try to screw me even though I kept their maintenance schedule, just not with them. So my question is on a scale of 1 to squeal like a pig, how likely am I to hear banjos playing while Hyundai mounts me?
 

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Did you pay cash or debit/credit for your oil changes? That should give you some leverage at least?

I had a similar experience with Mazda - but mine was purchased used. My engine was burning oil, and was under warranty, but because I couldn't prove it, I had to call 26 Mazda dealers in a 600km radius and found the service was done on time at 6 different dealers.


I hope this ends well for you!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Did you pay cash or debit/credit for your oil changes? That should give you some leverage at least?

I had a similar experience with Mazda - but mine was purchased used. My engine was burning oil, and was under warranty, but because I couldn't prove it, I had to call 26 Mazda dealers in a 600km radius and found the service was done on time at 6 different dealers.


I hope this ends well for you!
Actually I did pay on a credit card and my first instinct was to try to pull up the records. The one I am missing is far enough back that online for the bank doesn't list it, but hopefully when I get home I can find it. At minimum it provides a small record of it having occurred, though not with exact mileage, it should extrapolate to a relative mileage. But with 3 oil changes at their interval of 7.5k per change I am technically on track for 28k traveled miles so I am doing better than warranty requirements.

I think I am just worried because the service rep sounded a little hesitant on Hyundai corporate side working with him and had some imperatives of getting receipts. I just don't like not knowing, up till now I had no real issues other than the power seat rails rocking which was a known issue and they didn't even hesitate when the service manager heard that complaint.
 

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Flat out, if you can't prove what was done and when, there's no reason for them to cover it. It would be as if they never happened.
Also, this might be a lesson. You don't have to go to the dealer for work ( I don't), but at the same time, you need to find a reputable mechanic. Always keep records, and if not, find a place that you trust, and that does keep records. A quickie lube place only changes oil, they don't do inspections, rotate tires, etc.... And stuff tends to go wrong quickly when it's not looked at on a regular basis.
 

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Flat out, if you can't prove what was done and when, there's no reason for them to cover it. It would be as if they never happened.
Also, this might be a lesson. You don't have to go to the dealer for work ( I don't), but at the same time, you need to find a reputable mechanic. Always keep records, and if not, find a place that you trust, and that does keep records. A quickie lube place only changes oil, they don't do inspections, rotate tires, etc.... And stuff tends to go wrong quickly when it's not looked at on a regular basis.
+1...

Good advice...ALWAYS keep records...

I get my gas at a 'top tier' gas station, Shell, and I keep all my gas receipts so they don`t try to 'bang' me with the Fuel Additive when I go in for a oil change...
 

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All should work out but if not remind the Dealer of the Magness vs Moss act about vehicle warranty. This case gives reference in regard to warranty invalidation specifically that the guarantee has to prove that you have committed negligence. So they would have to prove that the lack of oil changes caused fault.

Magnuson
 

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All should work out but if not remind the Dealer of the Magness vs Moss act about vehicle warranty. This case gives reference in regard to warranty invalidation specifically that the guarantee has to prove that you have committed negligence. So they would have to prove that the lack of oil changes caused fault.

Magnuson

To the OP:....There you go, more great advice....+1...:clap:
 

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This post makes me ill.

For the life of me I cannot understand why people don't just take their car to the dealer. Then they will be covered if the dealer screws up.

You may get satisfaction from Hyundai but they would have every right to deny the claim if you had your service done at a "pos" operation. I don't believe the law mentioned covers gross negligence on the part of the "pos" operation.

If you changed your own oil you would have a much better case to make. But then you have to dispose of the oil and filter which is a pain in the rear. For $25 (and the first four oil changes are free for me) it makes no sense to take your new car to a fly by night operation.

There is no way this engine self-destructs in so few miles. The irony is that if you had never changed the oil after the first change it would probably still be OK. While it would be dirty it would still be lubricating. I'll bet the farm they left a gasket from the old oil filter on and it didn't seal properly and the oil just squirted out or they didn't tighten everything right. The other alternative is that they forgot to put in the oil. It is actually possible to run an engine for a fair amount of distance before it destroys itself even with little or no lubrication. I wouldn't advise that but they don't just seize up for no good reason. Was their oil in the engine when they looked at it? If so, it should be analyzed. Perhaps a gasket had failed and let coolant in. If the oil wasn't there at all, I think you have your answer already. They didn't put in the oil or most of it or there was a leak. How would it just disappear? Even an oil burner with a couple hundred thousand miles would not be completely devoid of oil in the oil pan. And it would smoke like the devil if there was a defect with the rings or valve seals.

What I can't understand why someone would entrust a $30K vehicle to such an operation. That's the part I don't understand. Even if they had records, what's to say they weren't still negligent? You could have paid the money and had a receipt but where is the proof the oil was put in or that the oil filter or gasket wasn't leaking?

I hate to be unsympathetic but I just don't get this.

I'm doing part time work at the local dealer. I will pick the service manager's brain tomorrow to get his take on this and get back.
 

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People chest beat about Magnuson-Moss on forums like this but talk is cheap. The reality of the situation is that Hyundai will make a determination about the cause of the engine failure and if in their opinion it was caused by a lack of maintenance or negligent maintenance, then they'll deny warranty coverage. They don't have to "prove" a thing unless you go to the trouble of suing them which is typically not cost effective.

IOW, this is a classic example of a situation where possession is 9/10ths of the law. Hyundai possesses the capability to fix the car for free, but if they say no, the burden of proof and the hassle/expense of getting an audience to plead the other side rests entirely on the owner.

My guess is that if you make a reasonable, best-effort to dig up some kind of records that you've kept up with oil changes, they'll cover the repair.

- Mark
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
This post makes me ill.

For the life of me I cannot understand why people don't just take their car to the dealer. Then they will be covered if the dealer screws up.

You may get satisfaction from Hyundai but they would have every right to deny the claim if you had your service done at a "pos" operation. I don't believe the law mentioned covers gross negligence on the part of the "pos" operation.

If you changed your own oil you would have a much better case to make. But then you have to dispose of the oil and filter which is a pain in the rear. For $25 (and the first four oil changes are free for me) it makes no sense to take your new car to a fly by night operation.

There is no way this engine self-destructs in so few miles. The irony is that if you had never changed the oil after the first change it would probably still be OK. While it would be dirty it would still be lubricating. I'll bet the farm they left a gasket from the old oil filter on and it didn't seal properly and the oil just squirted out or they didn't tighten everything right. The other alternative is that they forgot to put in the oil. It is actually possible to run an engine for a fair amount of distance before it destroys itself even with little or no lubrication. I wouldn't advise that but they don't just seize up for no good reason. Was their oil in the engine when they looked at it? If so, it should be analyzed. Perhaps a gasket had failed and let coolant in. If the oil wasn't there at all, I think you have your answer already. They didn't put in the oil or most of it or there was a leak. How would it just disappear? Even an oil burner with a couple hundred thousand miles would not be completely devoid of oil in the oil pan. And it would smoke like the devil if there was a defect with the rings or valve seals.

What I can't understand why someone would entrust a $30K vehicle to such an operation. That's the part I don't understand. Even if they had records, what's to say they weren't still negligent? You could have paid the money and had a receipt but where is the proof the oil was put in or that the oil filter or gasket wasn't leaking?

I hate to be unsympathetic but I just don't get this.

I'm doing part time work at the local dealer. I will pick the service manager's brain tomorrow to get his take on this and get back.
The first was at the dealer, the second was a a mobil 1 lube express and the third at a jiffy lube where I provided mobil 1 oil myself. I have see no evidence of leaks anywhere I have parked, the third oil change was also at 18 so about 4k miles back. I park in the same spot almost always at work, and we just had it resurface about 2 months back so it is clean surface.

It was not a money saving issue for me, the dealer where I live is about 45 minutes north of me, or closer to an hour south. I don't spend any of my weekends in the same town as I work, so my weekends are spent working on a house and that is why after the first oil change they were at local places. And even though I have a good working environment where we can have flexible hours I have never had anything done in the dealers that was under 1.5 hours, so it would be over 3 hours for me to get it done at the dealer.

Also to the infallibility of dealers, with my previous ford, every time I was charged for something and the work never got done (as verified either by myself or another mechanic) or a gasket was left off it was at a dealership.

He never said there was no oil, he just said seized up, and that I have to verify the maintenance to get them to go to hyundai corporate.

So far there has been no denial of service on it, but he put the fear of jesus into me to go find a **** receipt. I already faxed in the one from jiffy but the mobil 1 doesn't keep records after 1 month. I have tried calling them a few times in the last 30 minutes to no response (its 5pm but they are open until 6) so I can't update either myself or any of you.
 

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The first was at the dealer, the second was a a mobil 1 lube express and the third at a jiffy lube where I provided mobil 1 oil myself. I have see no evidence of leaks anywhere I have parked, the third oil change was also at 18 so about 4k miles back. I park in the same spot almost always at work, and we just had it resurface about 2 months back so it is clean surface.

It was not a money saving issue for me, the dealer where I live is about 45 minutes north of me, or closer to an hour south. I don't spend any of my weekends in the same town as I work, so my weekends are spent working on a house and that is why after the first oil change they were at local places. And even though I have a good working environment where we can have flexible hours I have never had anything done in the dealers that was under 1.5 hours, so it would be over 3 hours for me to get it done at the dealer.

Also to the infallibility of dealers, with my previous ford, every time I was charged for something and the work never got done (as verified either by myself or another mechanic) or a gasket was left off it was at a dealership.

He never said there was no oil, he just said seized up, and that I have to verify the maintenance to get them to go to hyundai corporate.

So far there has been no denial of service on it, but he put the fear of jesus into me to go find a **** receipt. I already faxed in the one from jiffy but the mobil 1 doesn't keep records after 1 month. I have tried calling them a few times in the last 30 minutes to no response (its 5pm but they are open until 6) so I can't update either myself or any of you.
Let me ask you this question.

Did you personally check the dipstick after the oil changes were done to ensure it was at the proper level?

Now I will say this. If the dealer tells you the oil sump was filled with oil, how does it seize up unless there was a defect in the engine such as the oil pump? If there was oil, at the proper level in the oil sump, then I would think the dealer would be obligated to lab test the oil to see if it was within the proper specifications.

The other possibility is that TOO MUCH oil was put into the engine which caused foaming and then it would conceivably result in improper lubrication of the bearing surfaces.

What I trying to say is that there must be a cause and effect relationship.

If the oil analysis comes back OK, and assuming the right and acceptable oil filter was used and didn't somehow impinge on the lubrication, I think the dealer and Hyundai would need to explain why the engine failed.

There has to be more to the story here; not saying you aren't telling us everything but exactly what is the explanation that the dealer provided? Engines do not fail at 22 K miles.

It is always possible that the wrong bearings were installed at the factory. But that doesn't explain why it would seize up. That would accompany a lot of loud knocking and banging if the bearing clearances were all out of whack.

This is a true story. A number of years ago I was gassing up my own vehicle and in comes in this guy with an older Ford Bronco making an ungodly amount of racket. I thought to myself that engine is going to blow up. And right in front of my eyes, it did exactly that. It actually dropped a piece of the camshaft right out on the pavement in full view. I didn't bother to look under his hood but when an engine is this worn out it ought to give off some early signs there is a problem.

That ticking noise you describe sounds much more like it was not being lubricated. You did the right thing to pull over and have it towed or flat bedded into the dealer. So you didn't just drive it until it completely destroyed itself. That's a point in your favor.

Bottom line is what does the service department actually tell you in the way of oil amounts in the sump and has an oil analysis been done? If so, then what were the results? Is it possible that the lube joint took your oil and put in some old oil drained from another vehicle to pad their profits?

There has to be a definitive answer somewhere.

BTW, you could also get your oil changed at another competing dealer. You need not get this done at the Hyundai dealer. I used to go to the local Ford dealer where I lived at the time in Texas and they did most of my maintenance work as did a close relative. In his case he didn't want to drive 50miles to the local Toyota dealership to have an oil change done so it was done locally at the Ford dealer. And I'm pretty sure they would have computer records as well.

I would NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES; NO HOW; NO WAY, would ever go to one of those fly by night quick change lube joints no matter how much they advertise and are used by others. For all we know they hand the job off to some joker with a dirty rag who is spaced out and doesn't give a hoot about his job. He may even purposely sabotage the oil change if he is is having a bad day to get back at his boss. I think it highly unlikely that this would occur at any mainline dealer's service department.

BTW, since your engine was still running fine prior to the last change at the Jiffy Lube place, it almost certainly has to be there where the problem lay if not a problem with the engine itself. If it was doing fine when done at the other oil change facilities it not likely they are the blame. Would I be wrong?

P.S. It is a point in your favor that the receipt from Jiffy Lube was found. If the engine hadn't failed prior to that then it points to the last oil change; again, as I say, unless the engine was somehow defective. That is unlikely but not unheard of. Sometimes things happen but there is usually a reason to be found.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Let me ask you this question.

Did you personally check the dipstick after the oil changes were done to ensure it was at the proper level?

Now I will say this. If the dealer tells you the oil sump was filled with oil, how does it seize up unless there was a defect in the engine such as the oil pump? If there was oil, at the proper level in the oil sump, then I would think the dealer would be obligated to lab test the oil to see if it was within the proper specifications.

The other possibility is that TOO MUCH oil was put into the engine which caused foaming and then it would conceivably result in improper lubrication of the bearing surfaces.

What I trying to say is that there must be a cause and effect relationship.

If the oil analysis comes back OK, and assuming the right and acceptable oil filter was used and didn't somehow impinge on the lubrication, I think the dealer and Hyundai would need to explain why the engine failed.

There has to be more to the story here; not saying you aren't telling us everything but exactly what is the explanation that the dealer provided. Engines do not fail at 22 K miles.

It is always possible that the wrong bearings were installed at the factory. But that doesn't explain why it would seize up. That would accompany a lot of loud knocking and banging if the bearing clearances were all out of whack.

This is a true story. A number of years ago I was gassing up my own vehicle and in comes in this guy with an older Ford Bronco making an ungodly amount of racket. I thought to myself that engine is going to blow up. And right in front of my eyes, it did exactly that. It actually dropped a piece of the camshaft right out on the pavement in full view. I didn't bother to look under his hood but when an engine is this worn out it ought to give off some early signs there is a problem.

That ticking noise you describe sounds much more like it was not being lubricated. You did the right thing to pull over and have it towed or flat bedded into the dealer. So you didn't just drive it until it completely destroyed itself. That's a point in your favor.

Bottom line is what does the service department actually tell you in the way of oil amounts in the sump and has an oil analysis been done? If so, then what were the results? Is it possible that the lube joint took your oil and put in some old oil drained from another vehicle to pad their profits?

There has to be a definitive answer somewhere.
Yeah, I agree, I am kicking myself for not checking the level at the time waiting for the tow truck but at the time I actually thought this might be the alternator because of how it went down while driving right at the moment I let the engine idle. At the moment he says they haven't tried to actually start taking things apart to look and that the service manager has been in meetings. So there is no report on 'was there oil, how much was left, what the **** happened', the only explanation he has given me over the phone was 'engine is seized up', but I don't know how they verified or what has been done. His explanation on the phone sounds like they haven't even moved it from the dealer parking lot to the rack yet so I don't know how he got that diagnosis. But it sounded like they didn't even want to try looking at it unless I could prove I had done all of the maintenance, phrases like "When my manager gets out of a meeting I will try to fight for you" don't inspire me at a point when they haven't even taken any real mechanical steps.

But since I didn't verify presence and quality of oil myself I now have to hope they deal honestly with me because they could just drain it on the rack and say it was never in there and its my problem. I know its just paranoia but I have seen dealerships do a lot of dishonest things and my own personal experiences have told me not to trust them.
 

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Yeah, I agree, I am kicking myself for not checking the level at the time waiting for the tow truck but at the time I actually thought this might be the alternator because of how it went down while driving right at the moment I let the engine idle. At the moment he says they haven't tried to actually start taking things apart to look and that the service manager has been in meetings. So there is no report on 'was there oil, how much was left, what the **** happened', the only explanation he has given me over the phone was 'engine is seized up', but I don't know how they verified or what has been done. His explanation on the phone sounds like they haven't even moved it from the dealer parking lot to the rack yet so I don't know how he got that diagnosis. But it sounded like they didn't even want to try looking at it unless I could prove I had done all of the maintenance, phrases like "When my manager gets out of a meeting I will try to fight for you" don't inspire me at a point when they haven't even taken any real mechanical steps.

But since I didn't verify presence and quality of oil myself I now have to hope they deal honestly with me because they could just drain it on the rack and say it was never in there and its my problem. I know its just paranoia but I have seen dealerships do a lot of dishonest things and my own personal experiences have told me not to trust them.
It is possible that your dealer is unethical but not likely. I wouldn't put too much stock in that at this point in time. What I would suggest is that you stick to your guns and get some definitive answers as to the oil level in the engine and the analysis of the oil.

I can speak to this from personal knowledge. I had occasion to contact Hyundai directly over a non-related issue but they came down hard on the dealership and they had nothing to do with the situation. I felt badly for the service department because they had always treated me very good. I had to patch up some relations with them even more so since I do part time driving for them. But they have never treated me badly. But yours could be an exception.

You need answers to specific questions. If the oil level was right and the oil analysis comes back OK, I can't see how Hyundai would not be honor bound to fix the engine. What would be their argument? I'm not getting that part.

In a worse case scenario you could consider going to the small claims court to get some relief. It has been my experience that when I rattle a few cages I usually get prompt relief very soon. But bide your time until you get the answers you need. Keep us apprised.
 

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If it were a factory issue there would be engines before or after production with the same issue, wrong bearings just don't show up in the middle of a production run for one engine.

Personal responsibility is what this boils down to. Why didn't you maintain a file, 3 ring binder or scanned receipt of all maintenance done, it's not the responsibility of a coupon oil change place to maintain your records. The owners manual specifically states warranty needs, procedures and requirements which are very simple to follow- maintenance requirement, prove it, we accept it. Don't think of the Magnuson act, it has absolutely nothing to do with this incident.

It ceases to amaze me with so many easy ways to capture or record documents many don't do it.
 

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I hope it works out for you. That would freak me out.

All of a sudden I'm feeling really good about buying the maintenance package. It covers me for 5 years and it basically comes out to $17 an oil change. I couldn't do it for that cost.
 

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Man, this is bad, no matter what happened to his engine.
My dealer is 30 minutes away on a good traffic day. I still take my cars to the dealer and pretty much always have in the last 20 years or more. No place to work on my cars living in a condo.
On my 2013 SF I have free oil changes and ties rotation for 2 years, or maybe its 3 years. Gotta check. All at 5000 mile intervals.
One thing I have always done is bring the receipts to the wife to file. And keep them ALL until I get rid of the vehicle. I learned that during my years as a service adviser.
OP let us know what they find and do about it. And good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
If it were a factory issue there would be engines before or after production with the same issue, wrong bearings just don't show up in the middle of a production run for one engine.

Personal responsibility is what this boils down to. Why didn't you maintain a file, 3 ring binder or scanned receipt of all maintenance done, it's not the responsibility of a coupon oil change place to maintain your records. The owners manual specifically states warranty needs, procedures and requirements which are very simple to follow- maintenance requirement, prove it, we accept it. Don't think of the Magnuson act, it has absolutely nothing to do with this incident.

It ceases to amaze me with so many easy ways to capture or record documents many don't do it.
First I am not saying there were wrong bearings or anything specific even right now, all I can even do is parrot what the service guy said. Second they haven't yet denied my warranty viability. Third I have done all of the due diligence in maintaining the actual automobile and according to them its dead at way to early a life (though I am still suspect because it sounds like the haven't done much more than turn the key).

However you are correct that my record keeping is shameful and a lesson on my part is learned, i have every work order from my previous car lasting 10 years, and it got unwieldy but I had it. This time it was an issue of moving around too much at the same time of life getting in the way.

I am not sure if you work for a dealer or represent one, your response of 'we accept it' leads me to maybe think that is true. Thus it seems your attitude is well you don't have the paper work so everything is your fault. However you are missing a point, its not bad record keeping that is a root problem here its a car not functioning, and being that prescribed maintenance was followed the basic fault I would argue is not mine. Also the last person to put oil in I witnessed doing so because I provided the oil and I didn't want them just putting crap in, and luckily this is the one I have paperwork on. So being that I have done my physical requirements but not proof there of it would be up to them to say that one missing oil change between 7.5k and the recorded 18k could entirely destroy the engine. Also because I did have it done in between if they wish to deny it eventually I would say magnuson does come into play because there is a thing called tort, and then I need only make my case to either a judge or my peers whether they believe I had been negligent and rules of evidence are reduced for these cases.

I am not claiming I am a hapless victim, I was actually just hoping to keep my own personal experience available to everyone, and to see if anyone else had experienced anything of the sort.
 

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Engine seized... #2 rod bearing spun in rod and tore up crank and crank wont rotate...

Seen a bunch of this.. kinda random occurrance over last couple yr, we not had one since first of yr I think.. maybe 2 or 3 last yr.
 

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keeping records in good condition for the long term has always been my problem. I once had trouble with a service place two years after some brakes were installed (only about 9000 miles). They were refusing to honor the warranty because their receipts faded to much to be read.

Since then I've gone digital. Now when I get home or that night I scan all my major receipts into PaperPort and I have them forever. Even if the house burns down I'm good, the drive is backed up to the cloud.
 

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There is no need to keep receipts just date, mileage, services performed, and parts used.

In this case if there is an issue with the frequency of oil changes denying warranty I suggest getting a used oil analysis with TBN done at your own expense. This test will prove the oil was not the problem if it was changed according to schedule. I would tell the dealer that you expect to be present when the oil sample is taken and reimbursed when the test results come back ok. Here is some more info http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/engine-oil-analysis/
 
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