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Background:

I reluctantly sold my 2006 Sonata with the 3.3 liter Lambda engine on 5/9/2018. It had only 124,000+ miles on it with regular service and oil change with proper weight, full synthetic oil. Never an engine problem though there had been intermittent check engine, headlight, etc lights come on since I bought the car in 2006. Hyundai could never replicate the problem nor tell me what caused the random lights to come on as they did then go out. Hyundai, Auto Zone and O'Reilly's code readers never came back with any reading at all. There was never any faulty engine performance and the vehicle traveled across country and back on numerous occasions from 6,700 miles on the clock when I bought it until my recent sale at 124,000+ miles as indicated above.

Problem:

The new owner was told of these issues and was given a new serpentine belt, belt tensioner and idler pulley ($200+) and informed that car would be due a lube and oil change at 125,800, plus safety inspection (it had never failed one) and new registration was due at the end of 6/2018. Now here's where it gets interesting. He took the Sonata to Jiffy Lube, a WEEK later and they told him they couldn't change the filter because it was an 'internal' filter (it's not) but he elected to have them do it anyway. 108 miles later the engine seized on the freeway. He had it towed to BYOP (Bring Your Own Parts) in San Antonio where they confirmed the engine was seized but did no other work on it. Yes, he was really quite upset and complained he bought a 'bad car'.Out of the goodness of my heart, I met him at BYOP and had them put the car on the lift so I could verify everything underneath the car was okay. It was. Next I had them take the engine shroud off (which perplexed the new owner) and removed the filter cartridge cap. You guessed it, the filter had NOT been changed and the housing was filled with some sort of residue that looked like black dirt (my guess is carbon) and the filter was clogged with what looked like sand. The oil showed to be new oil though. His BYOP tech claimed the black sooty, granular looking material was 'sludge' (?) even though it was dry.

The upshot is that the guy wants me to buy him a new engine or give him his money back (Nope, I won't). Hyundai says that all GDI engines are prone to carbon build up and the only way I could have known something was wrong would have been to the tear the engine down. I pointed out to the new owner that Jiffy Lube had lied to him and had charged him for a filter change anyway. Later they changed their mind and told him they actually HAD changed the filter. It was the old Hyundai filter so, in fact they had NOT changed the filter. So far he hasn't taken up the paperwork lie with Jiffy Lube corporate.

This long story is long only because I didn't know how to put it out there and wonder if anybody else has had surprises of this type with carbon build up?
 

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Background:

I reluctantly sold my 2006 Sonata with the 3.3 liter Lambda engine on 5/9/2018. It had only 124,000+ miles on it with regular service and oil change with proper weight, full synthetic oil. Never an engine problem though there had been intermittent check engine, headlight, etc lights come on since I bought the car in 2006. Hyundai could never replicate the problem nor tell me what caused the random lights to come on as they did then go out. Hyundai, Auto Zone and O'Reilly's code readers never came back with any reading at all. There was never any faulty engine performance and the vehicle traveled across country and back on numerous occasions from 6,700 miles on the clock when I bought it until my recent sale at 124,000+ miles as indicated above.

Problem:

The new owner was told of these issues and was given a new serpentine belt, belt tensioner and idler pulley ($200+) and informed that car would be due a lube and oil change at 125,800, plus safety inspection (it had never failed one) and new registration was due at the end of 6/2018. Now here's where it gets interesting. He took the Sonata to Jiffy Lube, a WEEK later and they told him they couldn't change the filter because it was an 'internal' filter (it's not) but he elected to have them do it anyway. 108 miles later the engine seized on the freeway. He had it towed to BYOP (Bring Your Own Parts) in San Antonio where they confirmed the engine was seized but did no other work on it. Yes, he was really quite upset and complained he bought a 'bad car'.Out of the goodness of my heart, I met him at BYOP and had them put the car on the lift so I could verify everything underneath the car was okay. It was. Next I had them take the engine shroud off (which perplexed the new owner) and removed the filter cartridge cap. You guessed it, the filter had NOT been changed and the housing was filled with some sort of residue that looked like black dirt (my guess is carbon) and the filter was clogged with what looked like sand. The oil showed to be new oil though. His BYOP tech claimed the black sooty, granular looking material was 'sludge' (?) even though it was dry.

The upshot is that the guy wants me to buy him a new engine or give him his money back (Nope, I won't). Hyundai says that all GDI engines are prone to carbon build up and the only way I could have known something was wrong would have been to the tear the engine down. I pointed out to the new owner that Jiffy Lube had lied to him and had charged him for a filter change anyway. Later they changed their mind and told him they actually HAD changed the filter. It was the old Hyundai filter so, in fact they had NOT changed the filter. So far he hasn't taken up the paperwork lie with Jiffy Lube corporate.

This long story is long only because I didn't know how to put it out there and wonder if anybody else has had surprises of this type with carbon build up?
IMO there could not have been that much carbon build up on the intake to let loose all at once and seize the engine. Possibly a engine cleaner was used (like BG EPR, a powerful oil solvent cleaner that is used immediately before an oil change and engine is only run about 20 min with it in) before the oil change and that combined with the filter not being changed clogged the system the engine seized.

On many other forums Ive seen threads posted about post Jiffy Lube engines seizing, no oil pressure etc. usually it is they used wrong filter or left old o ring in place and the double filter o ring blew out and dumped the oil. Many law suits against them, especially on the Mercedes Forums since they still use cartridge filters and the techs at Jifffy seem to mess it up changing them.

IMO you have no liability, especially if it was in writing about it due for oil and filter change. The car ran OK when you sold it, It blew after Jiffy worked on it, no oil filter change and they or the new owner my have used an engine cleaner. New owner needs to deal with Jiffy Lube.

Again I dont believe that if your car was running well when sold there is no way it could have dumped or had enough carbon buildup on the intake valves to plug a filter, it would not have been running or if it was it would have been so bad performance wise you would not have been able to sell it.

If your in california anyone can sue for anything but I think you have no fault in this , used car sales-no warranty and you told him to get oil and filter changed and Jiffy did not do what they said.
 

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...the filter had NOT been changed and the housing was filled with some sort of residue that looked like black dirt (my guess is carbon) and the filter was clogged with what looked like sand. The oil showed to be new oil though. His BYOP tech claimed the black sooty, granular looking material was 'sludge' (?) even though it was dry.
Without oil analysis it's hard to guess at the "carbon", "sand", "sludge". If the oil was clean and the filter was bypassing due to clogged element then the stuff in the filter would be present in the oil. The sludge should also be present under the valve cover, but I doubt sludge in such a short time.

You can advise him to pull a sample of oil from the engine and another from the filter to be analyzed. The results could help him with Jiffy Lube case.

I don't let anyone change my oil, especially not those no nothing kids at Jiffy Lube. There have been many cases where the quicky lube shops have caused seized engines, and why any Mercedes owner would take their car to one befuddles me.
 

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Without oil analysis it's hard to guess at the "carbon", "sand", "sludge". If the oil was clean and the filter was bypassing due to clogged element then the stuff in the filter would be present in the oil. The sludge should also be present under the valve cover, but I doubt sludge in such a short time.

You can advise him to pull a sample of oil from the engine and another from the filter to be analyzed. The results could help him with Jiffy Lube case.

I don't let anyone change my oil, especially not those no nothing kids at Jiffy Lube. There have been many cases where the quicky lube shops have caused seized engines, and why any Mercedes owner would take their car to one befuddles me.
If you ever have a few hours to kill and be entertained at the same time. Just google "Jiffy Lube horror stories". I really liked the "saws all" one where the moron cut his way through the skid plate to get to the drain plug. No one in their right mind would ever go to a shop of this kind if they read even a few of these stories.
 

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Without oil analysis it's hard to guess at the "carbon", "sand", "sludge". If the oil was clean and the filter was bypassing due to clogged element then the stuff in the filter would be present in the oil. The sludge should also be present under the valve cover, but I doubt sludge in such a short time.

You can advise him to pull a sample of oil from the engine and another from the filter to be analyzed. The results could help him with Jiffy Lube case.

I don't let anyone change my oil, especially not those no nothing kids at Jiffy Lube. There have been many cases where the quicky lube shops have caused seized engines, and why any Mercedes owner would take their car to one befuddles me.

That was the general consensus on the MBZ Forum (why would you go there to save $ on a new warrantied MBZ) I used to be on, why would you take your new almost $ 50,000 car to a $49 oil change shop using minimum trained young kids or older burn out wantabe mechanics. But it happened and Im sure more than once. The thread I followed was about 3 yr ago and the car was less than 1 yr old 2014 C 350 premium, owner took car to Jiffy Lube and less than 150 miles later the engine seized, towed to MBZ for warranty, they looked at it and filter was either incorrect or incorrectly installed and they refused coverage, last I read on the thread after a 6 month + ordeal owner was still dealing with Jiffy Lube Corporate and no car or compensation at that time....
 

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Catch cans do prevent gunk build up on the intake valves. When the oil and other fluids mix with the intake air they can carbonize on the intake valve- which makes perfect sense despite what that says. Also, the head ventilation system has to be run through a catch can as well as the PCV. All that gunk lowers the effective octane of the fuel everytime the engine takes a gulp of it.

Water/meth injection systems also reduce intake valve deposits and with a tune create a lot more engine power.
I make my Hiunday accent 2012 turbo but my air/fuel mix is poor I buy whater/methanol but I need to set that to make my mix rich or make my direct inyection programmable
 

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I've disassembled a dozen of these engines (most with damaged cranks/connecting rods) and neither carbon buildup nor sludge has been an issue. The intake valve deposits are invariably of unknown material but don't appear to be carbon and they are VERY hard.
 

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The intake valve deposits are invariably of unknown material but don't appear to be carbon and they are VERY hard.
Ok im curious, what do you think they are if not carbon? Crystal size/ structure and hardness can vary with the temp they form at. So you have to look at where they occur.
 

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Ok im curious, what do you think they are if not carbon? Crystal size/ structure and hardness can vary with the temp they form at. So you have to look at where they occur.
I don't have an opinion and you could be right, diamonds being an obvious example. If carbon they are like no carbon deposit I know of, the deposits have to be ground off.
 

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.... If carbon they are like no carbon deposit I know of, the deposits have to be ground off.
What you posted above is exactly the same thing that I read in a paper that a (supposed) expert wrote about Direct Injection-related issues. Did you by any chance try spraying on some of the BG valve deposit remover product that many people on these auto forums rave about? If it's as good as they claim, one would expect direct application to dissolve the deposits in a fairly short amount of time (not putting any $$ on that happening however).
 

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I don't have an opinion and you could be right, diamonds being an obvious example. If carbon they are like no carbon deposit I know of, the deposits have to be ground off.
Im really not trying to be a smartass, just saying it has to be carbon because of the type of fuel and oils were using. There was an article i read not too long ago, ill try and find it, that did a study and determined the deposits were unique to GDI in the way they formed.
 

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What you posted above is exactly the same thing that I read in a paper that a (supposed) expert wrote about Direct Injection-related issues. Did you by any chance try spraying on some of the BG valve deposit remover product that many people on these auto forums rave about? If it's as good as they claim, one would expect direct application to dissolve the deposits in a fairly short amount of time (not putting any $$ on that happening however).
CRC cleaner makes this claim:

Proven to remove up to 46% of GDI Intake Valve deposits in 1 hour

what claims does BG make in terms of percentage and time, if I were in charge of BG marketing I'd claim up to 53% in 49 minutes, gotta stay ahead of the competition.
 
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CRC cleaner makes this claim:

Proven to remove up to 46% of GDI Intake Valve deposits in 1 hour

what claims does BG make in terms of percentage and time, if I were in charge of BG marketing I'd claim up to 53% in 49 minutes, gotta stay ahead of the competition.
CRC does have some pretty positive results posted in pictures of a Sonata intake pre and post using the cleaner of course it is sales presentation and is to market the product so keep that in mind.

Ive also seen a YouTube video where the owner of a BMW removed his intake and used CRC sprayed into the intake one cyl at at time and allowed to soak and then clean with small wire brush, air and towel and the CRC did break down and remove the carbon instead of walnut blasting.

Im sure that spraying it into a running engine is not going to clean as much as allowing it to soak one intake chamber at at time. But IMO it is cheap maintenance insurance at $ 10 a can and a few minutes to do.

I was involved in selling BG products 30 yr ago and they were one of the first if not the first to have a injector cleaner that was done by pressurizing the injector rail and allowing it to soak and it did clean injectors and improve spray patterns. I believe BG products are excellent quality but to use their DI intake cleaner you need their manifold set up to introduce it into the system it is not a aerosol can.
 

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CRC does have some pretty positive results posted in pictures of a Sonata intake pre and post using the cleaner of course it is sales presentation and is to market the product so keep that in mind.

Ive also seen a YouTube video where the owner of a BMW removed his intake and used CRC sprayed into the intake one cyl at at time and allowed to soak and then clean with small wire brush, air and towel and the CRC did break down and remove the carbon instead of walnut blasting.
Good info but having never used intake valve cleaner at this point will stay the course and if needed opt for using the method above , would seem to be not too difficult a task to remove the intake manifold and soak then scrape, I might even get more than 46% of the carbon but admittedly would be a lot more than an hour of work.

Doesn't seem to be a lot of Hyundai owners having issue with this problem - unlike the other problem in certain engines, lol
 

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Good info but having never used intake valve cleaner at this point will stay the course and if needed opt for using the method above , would seem to be not too difficult a task to remove the intake manifold and soak then scrape, I might even get more than 46% of the carbon but admittedly would be a lot more than an hour of work.
Problem is you cant guarantee scraping the carbon off wont dislodge some that becomes lodged in the rings. Guess it is what it is.
 

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Given that our cars use direct injection (DI) it is a known fact that the engine is prone to increased accumulation of deposits on the valves as a result of deposit forming substances being fed back into the engine via the PCV system. Since there is no fuel being sprayed directly over the valves, like it would in a port injection setup, this requires us to take special precautions to slow down the build up. From my research I have found some information and would like others' input.

1) OIL CATCH CAN: The basic idea here is to filter as much oil vapour as we can before it is fed back into the intake manifold. How effective is this and has anyone had this installed on their Sonata? If so how much did it cost for parts and labor? Also is this an aftermarket or OEM part?

2) OIL WITH LOW NOACK VOLATILITY: The basic idea here is to use an oil that is less likely to vapourize or burn off. How effective is this and can someone recommend some conventional/Dino oils with low NOACK volatility? I came across Pennzoil yellow bottle (conventional) as being one of those. However I know that Hyundai seems to recommend Quaker State in the owners manual (not sure why).

3) CLEANERS: Fuel injector cleaners won't help since they will never make it to the valves in a DI engine. However there is the idea of running Seafoam through the brake booster or air intake. BP also has a direct injection fuel system cleaner which I'm guessing must be run through the intake as well. How effective is this and how often should one do this?

4) PHYSICALLY CLEAN VALVES: This is when you have gotten to the point where you have to physically clean the valves by taking everything apart. This is the last resort.

Can someone also comment on how prone Hyundai DI engines are as opposed to other manufacturers?
or run on 91 octane
 

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Good info but having never used intake valve cleaner at this point will stay the course and if needed opt for using the method above , would seem to be not too difficult a task to remove the intake manifold and soak then scrape, I might even get more than 46% of the carbon but admittedly would be a lot more than an hour of work.

Doesn't seem to be a lot of Hyundai owners having issue with this problem - unlike the other problem in certain engines, lol
I have removed heads, soaked the inlet valves in situ (sometimes for a few days) in a variety of solvents, and nothing removed the deposits. The caveat is that all those heads had at least 70k miles on them and the deposits were well established and possibly 'baked' on by hundreds of hours of running time.

One of the chemicals used was CRC and it didn't touch a thing. I don't dispute their claims though, but believe the usage regimen must be initiated early in the engine life and implemented as recommended and consistently to affect deposits.

Mechanical removal of the valve deposits is problematic. I wouldn't be comfortable applying a rotary wire wheel/brush to valve stems and seats, though I can't state categorically that it would damage them. I've had valves out of a head but more to examine them for wear or erosion and have attempted to mechanically remove deposits from a few, to little avail. I'm not sure if Hyundai uses a coating on them or not ( I suppose I could always buy a new one to inspect :) ).

My final observation is that the impingement and adhesion is at most marginally affective to the valves, but recirculation of hardened particles thoughout the engine could have deleterious effects, which may be a rationale of the the catch-can.
 

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I have removed heads, soaked the inlet valves in situ (sometimes for a few days) in a variety of solvents, and nothing removed the deposits. ...
Thanks for posting that account of what you did. I always give much more weight to a reliable hands-on source than marketing hype, or people who report using these products but typically are not able to confirm that they are actually removing deposits. However, if anyone does a before/after examination of valves with an endoscope, I'd be interested in reading the results of that as well.
 

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Thanks for posting that account of what you did. I always give much more weight to a reliable hands-on source than marketing hype, or people who report using these products but typically are not able to confirm that they are actually removing deposits. However, if anyone does a before/after examination of valves with an endoscope, I'd be interested in reading the results of that as well.
I too like and appreciate his post as it effectively rules out my buying and using any of those treatments, I've never been much of an additive or solvent type of guy anyways but I will admit to having installed a catch can some yrs back and it has caught precious little over the years but it's been my one and only "mod" to the auto, other than the rabbit's foot carried in the glove box in the hopes of avoiding the Theta II affliction.
 
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