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As of 14th July 2018 new fat and stupid Ontario 'leader' killed $14,000 electric vehicle rebate. Currently top Ioniq el sells for almost $50K tax incl. Well, nobody sane is going to pay $50K for that puny, limited distance driving car. Shame...
 

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As of 14th July 2018 new fat and stupid Ontario 'leader' killed $14,000 electric vehicle rebate. Currently top Ioniq el sells for almost $50K tax incl. Well, nobody sane is going to pay $50K for that puny, limited distance driving car. Shame...
Why should the taxpayer subsidize it?
 

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Because if everybody buys cheaper electrical cars, you would breath fresh air, most likely polar caps will stop melting as fast as they do now and in general human race will not be extinct by the year 2300.
And if we can pay for useless little prick's vacations and his chopper rides, why not pay for the good cause???
 

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Lithium mines where the battery materials come from are some of the most polluting mines in the world.

Why subsidize 100k Tesla’s not made here.

Pacifica vans made here in Windsor still have a subsidy.
 

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It's really a sad state of affairs. We all want whats best but we don't want to pay for it. We have government mandates but my question is what are they going to do to generate the billions of dollars from fuel tax.
 

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Plenty of green backs to be made from the green movement unfortunately.

Your a denier the second you want to follow the money trail.

I prefer progressive government moves like LED light subsidies (which I started buying yrs ago) where you encourage lower electricity consumption and everyone sees the progression. Compact fluorescent with its murcury content was the previous environmental forced solution, but we’ll pretend it never happened.

Hydrogen I think is the real solution; but there needs to be steps in between like electric/hybrid.

I care about the environment quite a bit; but I don’t like to get played. Consumer and market place incentives need to lead IMO.
 

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Plenty of green backs to be made from the green movement unfortunately.

Your a denier the second you want to follow the money trail.

I prefer progressive government moves like LED light subsidies (which I started buying yrs ago) where you encourage lower electricity consumption and everyone sees the progression. Compact fluorescent with its murcury content was the previous environmental forced solution, but we’ll pretend it never happened.

Hydrogen I think is the real solution; but there needs to be steps in between like electric/hybrid.

I care about the environment quite a bit; but I don’t like to get played. Consumer and market place incentives need to lead IMO.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure hydrogen is the answer, either. The issue is 'creating' the hydrogen. To produce hydrogen in the scale needed to replace gasoline, the process to separate out the hydrogen uses much more energy than it gives to the car in power. More efficient ways of producing the hydrogen are extremely expensive and slow. Which is the reason hydrogen costs are so high (over $5 for the equivalent to a gallon of gas).

Hopefully we'll have some type of "breakthrough" in being able to isolate out hydrogen for use in cars -- but we aren't there yet and may never be. Instead, it appears the current type of electric cars is likely going to be the future, as new types of batteries are developed; ones that are more environmentally friendly, don't "wear out," and can charge quicker.
 

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Unfortunately the majority of Hydrogen is produced from Hydrocarbon fuels and produces massive amounts of carbon dioxide during the process. Catch 22. There is a new fuel out now called A20 which like E10 uses a blend of Methanol (instead of Ethanol) to reduce emissions. The most unfortunate thing is the volume of engines reliant on petrol around the world.
 

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Lithium mines where the battery materials come from are some of the most polluting mines in the world.

Why subsidize 100k Tesla’s not made here.

Pacifica vans made here in Windsor still have a subsidy.
Any chance of a reference as to why Lithium mines are some of the most polluting inn the world??? I happen to know quite a bit about mining and would very surprised if that statement could be proved.

A little bit like the drive 10-15 years ago to grow huge volumes of corn to produce ethanol to mix with gasoline. Food costs in the third world escalated, ethanol was not exactly willingly embraced by the motoring public and tax concessions produced a huge financial boondoggle., paid for by the taxpayer.
 

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The inter web can be used to find an opinion you want to hear if you search hard enough.
Most polluting is a stretch; if money spent on proper controls mining impact especially hard rock can be minimal.
But lots of China Russia mines, very large water consumption from what I have read.

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environment-impact

The ethanol push was questionable. The original model T ran on potato spirits IIRCC but because of prohibition and boot legging gov forced Ford to switch to petroleum gasoline. Funny how thing sometimes go full circle.
 

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I suspect the Carbon Footprint (CF) for making a V6 or V8 gasoline or diesel engine is quite close the the CF of making the relatively huge batteries for cars, but in addition the gassers continue to have a high CF throughout their lives where the EVs do not.
 

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It's really a sad state of affairs. We all want whats best but we don't want to pay for it. We have government mandates but my question is what are they going to do to generate the billions of dollars from fuel tax.
That is a very good question, I never thought of that. Maybe that is why Ontario, Canada is not rushing to switch over in 10 years time like Europe, China and California . One possibility is raising the Sales Tax maybe, to make up for the lost fuel tax revenue ?
 

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Easy. Put an annual tax on electric cars. There is talk of it here and I believe in some US states it's already happening. So much for doing the right thing.
 

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Easy. Put an annual tax on electric cars. There is talk of it here and I believe in some US states it's already happening. So much for doing the right thing.
Yes, that is even better than my suggestion of raising the sales tax because you are not forcing everyone to make up the lost gas tax revenue. The only thing is that electric vehicles cost more than ICE vehicles and cheaper cost of ownership makes up for this difference. The annual tax will then make electric vehicles cost more to own and not justify their higher cost to buy.
 

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I know that you know that but the government needs revenue. I did look up the amount of money our government takes each year in fuel tax and it's a very large figure. Their tight lipped about how their going to do it. Another one they have here is stamp duty on a house purchase and when sales were booming they just took the money now that sales have dropped their is a roomer that every house owner will have an annual tax put on their property. Don't you just love em.
 

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I live in a state that did implement a surcharge for electric vehicles to make up for the lost gas tax revenue. It is assessed on your yearly license renewal. I don't own an EV yet but I plan to get one for my next vehicle purchase.

The problem , if you want to call it that, is that of course you have to charge everyone the same, whereas the fuel tax is obviously based on how much you drive,so in that regard it is more fair. The tax is used to maintain roads in my state, so your usage of the roads and their wear and tear is directly tied to the amount you end up paying in fuel tax.

For me i drive very little, took transit, so paid little in gas tax.

I guess only other way you could do it with EVs, is to put GPS in everyones car to calculate their mileage and tax them on it. Obviously not going to happen.

Seems like whatever the lost revenue is from the gas tax, you just add a tax to the yearly license renewal, or through some other process. What difference does it make where the money comes from, it costs the same to maintain the roads no matter where the revenue comes from so if a person no longer pays gas tax, then they pay the surcharge, so it is not like they are out any more money out of their budget. It would be nice to keep a progressive tax based on usage, but oh well, we can live with it.
 

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I live in a state that did implement a surcharge for electric vehicles to make up for the lost gas tax revenue. It is assessed on your yearly license renewal. I don't own an EV yet but I plan to get one for my next vehicle purchase.

The problem , if you want to call it that, is that of course you have to charge everyone the same, whereas the fuel tax is obviously based on how much you drive,so in that regard it is more fair. The tax is used to maintain roads in my state, so your usage of the roads and their wear and tear is directly tied to the amount you end up paying in fuel tax.

For me i drive very little, took transit, so paid little in gas tax.

I guess only other way you could do it with EVs, is to put GPS in everyones car to calculate their mileage and tax them on it. Obviously not going to happen.

Seems like whatever the lost revenue is from the gas tax, you just add a tax to the yearly license renewal, or through some other process. What difference does it make where the money comes from, it costs the same to maintain the roads no matter where the revenue comes from so if a person no longer pays gas tax, then they pay the surcharge, so it is not like they are out any more money out of their budget. It would be nice to keep a progressive tax based on usage, but oh well, we can live with it.
But they will be " more money out of their budget " because an electric vehicle costs much more to purchase than a gas vehicle. The savings from the cost of not buying gas was supposed to make up for it. With the EV tax, the incentive to switch to EV from ICE, will be gone.
 
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