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Discussion Starter #1
I'd like to take a few minutes to tackle a subject. Some folks here may feel that I try to defend Dealers much of the time. That is because I have worked at a good Dealer for 37+ years and have met many other good Dealers over those years. No, we are not perfect. Mistakes can happen and sometimes you have a Tech that isn't 100% honest about everything. Last Friday one of our Techs put a customer's SUV into a ditch. Some days I am grateful I no longer manager the shop......But overall.....I think we do a good job and that we are fair to our customers. Now to be fair....I could rattle off the names of 5-7 local and regional Dealers who I would NEVER do business with. Why? Some had very poor Service Departments. Others were managed by Service Manager or had Dealer Principles that I did not feel were honest. Some, sadly, are still around. Others were voted out of existence by people using the power of their pocketbooks, and that is how it should be.

I don't have any issue if you feel differently. I take no offense at that. I do take offense when someone insinuates that every Dealer should be treated as though they are dishonest and / or are thieves until proven otherwise. Would you not feel the same if I walked into your office and treated you that way the very first time we met? EVERY profession, from fast food restaurants to lawyers, doctors, and even law enforcement have a few bad apples. But I would never think of everyone within that profession as being a party to their misdeeds. Well, politicians perhaps :)

A few of the items that tend to pop up a lot.....

Dealers try to up sell. Well, yes we do. So do most profession if you think about it. Would you like fries with that? My all time favorite was being asked about fries when I had just ordered a loaded baked potato for lunch. REALLY? Sure give me more potato to go with my potato. How about being offered desert at a restaurant? Your dentist might ask if you ever considered teeth whitening since you have such an otherwise perfect smile? How about a service contract for whatever you are buying? Even Walmart will try to up sell you a service contract of that $6 clock you just purchased.....You know, the one it would cost more to ship back to get the free replacement under the contract. Up selling is a fact of life.

Dealers over charge. Really? IN many restaurants if you take that price for a slice of that desert pie multiplied by eight.....You just paid quite a bit for that single slice of pie. In some cases it might be double what you could make or buy an entire pie for. I worked for a major department store back when I was in college. The mark up on most items shocked me. Does a medical specialist charge more than a general practitioner? Of course they do. So would you not expect that someone who specializes in your model of vehicle and who must be able to repair every area of that vehicle, regardless of how much training is required and regardless of the cost of the equipment and special tools might charge more than someone who provides general servicing in many areas but cannot diagnose the more intricate items? "You'll have to go to the Dealer fro that sir." Now, as an example of the opposite.....Do I believe in the myriad of flushes most Dealers may try to sell? Not really. As a general rule if you do the proper maintenance at the proper intervals, additional flushes should not be necessary. BUT....The maintenance schedules have been so watered down by the manufacturer's Marketing departments that sometimes...Those flushes may make sense. Look at each one individually and consider how long you plan to keep the vehicle. That may be especially true if you keep your vehicle for a very high number of miles or if a given component has a known issue. Interestingly enough I do see folks here who promote changing certain fluids that the maintenance schedules do not. Oh, and some of the supply companies.....Such as the BG products, may actually offer a service contract in return for having a flush done. That might make it worthwhile to you.

The Dealer doesn't want to fix my vehicle under warranty. Folks, we get paid by the manufacturer to fix your vehicle. Yes, the warranty labor rate and part markup may be lower than what you would pay. That's the price of the franchise agreement. Now at GM we do get paid a MINIMAL amount of time if no problem is duplicated. Trust me....What they pay us barely doesn't come close to covering the amount of time and materials used to write up your vehicle, have the tech look at it and document his findings, then have the shop foreman recheck it to see if he can duplicate the concern, and then close out the job card and talk to you. Hyundai does no,t as far as I know, pay for a no problem found. So if the Tech, foreman, and Service Manager spent time checking your vehicle and talking to you....If they tell you they didn't find anything they get paid ZERO. So why would they tell you than unless it was true?

The Dealer replaced parts I didn't need......Folks, in many cases there is no magic machine that diagnoses what is wrong with your vehicle and tells us how to repair it. As an example, when a DTC (Fault Code) is present or is stored in history.....That is essentially a symptom. It tells us where to start looking and which diagnostic charts to begin with. And that is where the fun really begins. Sometimes, after running through all of the diagnostic steps the chart may say to replace "X." "X" is a sealed electronic component. If there is no way to field test it and the chart says to replace it, then that is what we do. Does that always repair the problem? Nope. I wish it did. Sometimes there is a second or even a third component that was damaged. (No sir, no one ever connected the jumper cables backwards). Sometimes there may be a wiring issue that damaged that component or caused it to test as bad even though it wasn't. Sorry folks, but those things are not our fault. Nor is it our fault if you already spent $1,000 at your mechanic who was not able to fix it. It is the price of owning a VERY intricate piece of machinery. Now we may try to help you out by offering a discount on the parts or labor. Don't take that as an admission of guilt. A good Dealer will work with you to try to resolve issues that will [pop up during servicing.

The Service Writer didn't make sense.....Folks, these people are multi tasking the entire time they are working. Some are better than it then others. I had one writer who was great with the customers and good for the Dealership, but he was a confused cluster way too often. We might have replaced an alternator and on a customer's invoice he might have written that we replaced the starter motor. That happens. Did it drive me insane as a Manager? Of course it did. But I also knew that I could not do that job. I would not last a week. Nor would many of you. You have to experience it in a high volume Dealership to know what I mean. I will add that it is very difficult to keep up with all of the fast paced changes that occur in today's automobile, so in some cases you actually MAY know more about how a given portion of the vehicle operates (Such as the entertainment and nav systems) than the Writer does.


Again....There ARE bad Dealers and bad service departments, just as there are bad general mechanics and service centers. If you need to go to a Dealer for the first time.....Talk to your friends about where they go and how there experiences have been. Our customers are our best referral system. When you do make contact, don't be shy about asking any questions you may have.


Now let's flip this coin for a second......How often would you say that a customer comes in and doesn't tell us the ENTIRE story about what happened? Perhaps because they know they cased / created a problem but want the repair to be covered by warranty, so we get the lie of omission. No, my wife NEVER plugged her 1,500 watt hair dryer into a power outlet rated at 100 watts on the way to work. I never hit anything. That bent engine cradle must have been like that from the factory. Maybe if I don't tell them I hit something they won't be able to tell. Or my all time favorite...The person who is trading their vehicle and after being quoted a value, goes home and strips the good tires from the vehicle, puts an old battery he had lying around in to replace the one he just installed and that his neighbor offered to buy from him, takes out the Kenwood audio system and puts the original AM / FM radio back in, etc.....Yes folks, it does work both ways and things like this happen more often that you might think....There ARE bad customers as well.... :)

Here is the way I look at this topic.....As long as you come in and are fair with us we'll do our best to solve your problem. And please be honest. If someone else has been working on the vehicle TELL US. If they already replaced something TELL US. If they installed a used part, TELL US. We don't mind if you tell us your tale of woe. Just come in with a decent attitude. If we have never seen us before and you arrive sporting the "you're going to fix this and fix it for free" attitude when the vehicle is already out of warranty or you already spent that $1,000 elsewhere....Things are not going to go well. And yes, over the years I have declined working on a few vehicles based solely upon the customer's attitude when the walked in the door. Sometimes you can just tell that no amount of payment is going to make up for the amount of grief you are going to be facing. Over the years I also declined to work on a vehicle because it was SO cobbled up by the time it got to us you KNEW things were not going to go well. Finding the engine and transmission already in the back of a pick up bed or a disassembled engine loaded into the trunk of a car are two good examples of true cases I would not touch.....

If you feel that you had a bad experience, ask to speak to the Service Manager. If you are not happy with that result you can ask to speak to the General Manager or to the Dealer Principle. Here again...Be civil. Tell them the entire story and see where it goes. You might be surprised with the outcome. A good Dealer will work with you to try to resolve disputes. Just remember that is it a two way street.....
 

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All self-serving BS from top to bottom coming from an ex-dealership service manager who's been living in a fantasy world where puppies and unicorns frolic and automotive problems are the customers' fault.

Instead, see sbr711's posts on these forums. He's a sharp, conscientious, curious, and able tech working full-time in one of today's ACTUAL service departments, not one imagined in a dream world. He's surrounded by lazy, devious, dishonest techs and clueless service writers who couldn't give two, um, shakes about the customer. It's all about the money and avoiding the hard work of learning, thinking, and doing in fixing automotive problems right the first time. You wanna see someone who fixes the screwups (ALL brands, ALL models, and ALL problems) of dealership service departments after they've tapped out on looting the customer of money for ever more parts and labor? Check out indie Eric O.'s South Main Auto channel on YouTube.

Oh, and next time you're in a dealer's service department, ask the service writer and some techs whether they ever read, let alone participate in, online forums dealing with their dealership brand(s). Yeah, right. The tale-spinner above has the gall to post this stuff even though the current service manager at his own dealership has never heard of the Hyundai/KIA "sticky steering" problem. Think about that for a minute. Service manager, never heard of the problem. You think that guy ever reads the most popular Hyundai online forum on the internet? No, he doesn't, but then he's only the service manager for a large Hyundai dealership. Why would he bother? Kinda makes you wonder...

 

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I was a Honda-Acura tech for 22 years not even counting one year at Ferrari and another year at Toyota. Maybe, just maybe I know a tiny little bit more about cars and dealerships than Mr. Richard Bicker.
As for greysave, thank you for a good, honest, enlightening post. I agree with him 100%.
And we all owe a BIG THANK YOU for sbr711, I sincerely hope he stays with Hyundai no matter how bad the warranty flat rate pay turns out.
Some warranty work pays 5 hours for something which takes 6 or 7, and it has nothing to do with the tech being slow or inexperienced. How about a nice tip for the guy?
When I was a waiter in a high-class restaurant the best tip I got was $ 100, in 1975 dollars.
When I was working on cars the best ever we got was a dozen donuts; maybe twice in 22 years.
Think about that next time you complain.
 

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Do you have an argument to make, dog? Or does 22 years say it all, like the other guy's 37 years? Hey, does that make him almost twice as right as you are?

Here's how to make an argument: the best dealerships routinely evaluate their internal service department honesty by sending in "test customers" who appear clueless and willing to accept all dealer recommendations for service. After the service is performed, the quality, necessity, timeliness, and professionalism with which it was done is formally evaluated and the results used to ...?

You making an argument that that is ever done? No? Then how do you or greysave or anyone else represent with any credibility at all that a given dealership is "good" or "honest" or "serves the customer"? It's all just mouth music if it ain't backed up by real evidence and solid numbers, and I don't mean ones like 22 and 37...
 

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n
When I was a waiter in a high-class restaurant the best tip I got was $ 100, in 1975 dollars.
When I was working on cars the best ever we got was a dozen donuts; maybe twice in 22 years.
Think about that next time you complain.
Big difference between doing something you enjoy - like eating at a nice restaurant and taking your car in for service, I only go to dealer for warranty work but I never tip my dentist either.

Now I would endorse the dealership where I've taken my SFS to have my mileage read annually and for the recent sonic test/orange dipstick solution, the dealer performed a free vehicle inspection - brake pad measurements were taken and they were indeed accurate, every visit I've had at the dealership they have never tried to sell me anything.

The comp thing on warranty work I see as a Hyundai Corp. issue, it sounds like they are mickey mousing dealers which in some cases cascades down to customers with shoddy or incomplete work, eventually it comes full circle and customers move on to another brand.

But it's just not limited some auto dealerships - so many service companies try to rip off their customers, my current battles are with doctors,dentist and their upselling and borderline billing practices.
 

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My only real complaint is the upselling. If I bring it in for an oil change, that's all I want. Some are much better than others. But some, I make sure they are not helping me the next time I'm there.


Other than "that's normal" when you do have a complaint..... Instead of actually checking to see if something was done right.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
This thread was obviously a response to Mr. Bicker's prior comments in another thread. There ARE two sides to the story. His replies as written here and elsewhere speak for themselves. I'm not going to allow him to draw me into a debate at his level. He has his opinion and he's welcome to it. Perhaps he has chosen to work with Dealers who were that bad and just never moved on. As I said, we are not perfect. No one is. In fact, I pointed out that there WERE dealers in my very area that I would never go to.

Now I will add.........The MANUFACTURERS often send in secret shoppers to evaluate our Service Writers, the waiting area for customers, the showroom, etc.... We don't have to do that and nor are we expected to do it. We have done it on occasion when we did have new techs who were stealing items from vehicles. That was done in conjunction with law enforcement and charges were filed. See, the good Dealers do police ourselves.

Oh, and BTW...EVERY customer both retail and warranty receives a survey in my world. GM made that change about one year ago. Prior to that only warranty customers received surveys. Hyundai seems to also survey both types of customers. Those surveys count for a good part of our income as well as items like self authorization capabilities for the warranty work. They ARE important. Do a bad job and you get punished. Do a good job and you are rewarded. Sounds just like the free enterprise system at work to me.


Folks, I am going to drop out of this discussion because quite frankly....I have nothing more to say. I felt a need to clarify some items and as I said earlier....To show that there are two sides to every story. I have done that. If you continue please do try to keep it civil and I do encourage you to keep an open mind.
 

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My only real complaint is the upselling. If I bring it in for an oil change, that's all I want. Some are much better than others. But some, I make sure they are not helping me the next time I'm there.


Other than "that's normal" when you do have a complaint..... Instead of actually checking to see if something was done right.
So I avoid making any comments regards the actual guys doing the work - the technicians - they have a tough job and I think most earn their money, I sense sbr711 sets very high standards for himself as a matter of pride and integrity.

Having worked sales in hi tech for 3 decades - once you start compensating service mgrs and/or writers in varying degrees on a commission basis it's inevitable that a number of them are going to try to push services and upsell, that's just the way it works.

And customers would give me feedback when I sold professional services - sometimes positive, sometimes negative , but the service delivery people never expected to nor did they receive tips.
 

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2013+ Santa Fe's (one of them in my immediate family; 4 Hyundais overall) are immune from requiring service at a Hyundai dealer? Who knew? I'll give the owners the good news right away...THANKS!
 

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Both Greysave and Richard have valid points and both of you gentlemen have the right to your opinions, let’s keep the discussion going as civil as possible and we’ll have a good thread to discuss about. Here’s my opinion on my SF with this current Hyundai dealer that I’ve been going to for the last 3 years, these guys are honest and very straightforward and that is all I expected coming from them. I left the other Hyundai dealer because of all the BS they’re trying to pull on me but this one seems honest so I kept coming back. I offered to buy 6-8 coffees for them almost every time I come in for service and would tell them to give that to some of the technicians as well. They wouldn’t accept my nice gesture but I insisted anyways, again I’m not trying to kiss their ass or anything but it was my way of appreciation for their work and honesty. It’s not the money or tips that counts but a little nice gesture goes a long way. Sure I didn’t have to do that but I wanted to and really to me it was just a small Thank you for their hard work on my car. I even told them that I was interested on the 2019 SF XL and would come back here to purchase it, mainly for the reason that I was very satisfied with their customer service and to me that is very important. So yes every dealer are different and not all are the same, the ones that are $hitty will be the one that loses customers for services and it’s their loss

Would be nice to see a Moderator place this thread under off topic section but within the SF sub forum, my old Optimaforums was very nicely design where we can discuss things like this in a proper section but I guess this SF forum are different. Cheers guys!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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The point I tried to get across was that mechanics are among the least respected and most maligned of all blue-collar workers today.
I can't think of any other job so demanding BOTH physically and mentally.
One can learn the plumbing or carpentry trade in maybe 3-5 years and get better at it as the years pass by.
A new, young mechanic MIGHT believe that he finally mastered the trade after 6 years (I certainly did, lol) until he becomes aware of the fact
that as cars and their technology are constantly changing he needs never-ending training and sleepless nights reading up on the latest just to keep his head above the water line.

Some people get it, others don't. There must be members here who have no problem dropping $ 100 or more for a nice dinner, but they get upset to hear that their car needs fan belts or CV boots.
The April 2018 issue of "Car and Driver" has a 3-page article titled: "A SHORTAGE OF QUALIFIED TECHNICIANS HAS LEFT SERVICE DEPARTMENTS SCRAMBLING TO FIND NEW TALENT".

Read it if you can. I agree with them completely, albeit I retired from the trenches in the year 1999 and went to work in self storage management, with better pay and much, much easier work - say 10 times easier, at least.
My supervisors called me the hardest-working manager; I could barely stop giggling; they had no idea what hard work really means.
I can't quote from the Car and Driver because it is a long and detailed report, but in short:
Low pay, no respect, expensive tools, and the lack of desire to work hard in the young generation today makes good techs an endangered species.
Read it if you can.
 

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2013+ Santa Fe's (one of them in my immediate family; 4 Hyundais overall) are immune from requiring service at a Hyundai dealer? Who knew? I'll give the owners the good news right away...THANKS!
Thats not what this thread is about. This thread is a bitch fest. This crap should be in a general discussion forum. I have also owned many Hyundai's...that's why I have been here since 06. :smile:
 

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Thats not what this thread is about. This thread is a bitch fest. This crap should be in a general discussion forum. I have also owned many Hyundai's...that's why I have been here since 06.
Yay, another number—12 years, hey that's a nice one!

Hint, if you have nothing to contribute to a discussion topic, it's kinda like landing on a TV channel showing cats grooming themselves—you just move on...
 

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The point I tried to get across was that mechanics are among the least respected and most maligned of all blue-collar workers today.

Low pay, no respect, expensive tools, and the lack of desire to work hard in the young generation today makes good techs an endangered species..
This is just about the most absurd post I've ever read here (except of course for the bleating ex-dealer service guy).

Mechanics disrespected and maligned? In what universe and by which aliens exactly? Everyone I know, including myself, thinks the vast majority of mechanics are absolute wizards being able to diagnose and repair complex machines using specialized tools and intricate disassembly and reassembly procedures to say nothing of all the computer tech they must deal with on a routine basis. Any wrenchers who can't hack it are quickly weeded out and relegated to the quick lube joints.

Your complaint is with dealership practice and and cut-rate auto repair outfits, not with the general public and their opinion of you and your fellows. Competent technicians are worth their weight in gold, and while competition may keep wage rates down, the guys I know in the business make a good buck (until, of course, they turn in their tools for an easy chair, a 12" black and white TV, and a big bag of Cheetos to spend their days watching for U-Hauls pulling in from the 4-lane...)
 

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Dear Mr. Bicker, you might think I am just a dumb old grease monkey, which won't bother me at all. You are riding a pretty high horse yourself, but please, I'm begging you, grab a Car and Driver, April 2018 issue, and read that long, boring report.
 

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...please, I'm begging you, grab a Car and Driver, April 2018 issue, and read that long, boring report.
Obviously, you feel strongly about this and have recommended a (more or less) readily available source. On that basis, I'll be sure to acquire, read, and respond to the report. Thanks for the lead. Hey, is that someone beeping to get in the gate...?
 

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Yay, another number—12 years, hey that's a nice one!

Hint, if you have nothing to contribute to a discussion topic, it's kinda like landing on a TV channel showing cats grooming themselves—you just move on...
Your the one bragging about your 4 Hyundai's......

Here's your quote from another thread: "I'm just a forum kibbitzer, not a get-your-hands-dirty mechanical type."
Kibbitzer- one who looks on and often offers unwanted advice or comment.
You should follow your own advice.

I love forums with no moderators. Very entertaining. lol
By the way....I don't care for dealers either. Especially the bullshit up-sell like air conditioning service on a system that blows ice cold air. I feel sorry for the people that don't know better and fall for their up-sell of fake ****.

Now excuse me....I have to get back to my cat show....LOL!!!
 

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Thank you Greysave. we both work it! live it! and know the real truth. Just a little off topic humor. I work in a town that had 6 GM plants in the day with about 30,000 employees. I have worked at a GM dealer for more than 45 years. I always drove Fords. You have to be tough to take the jokes and attitude that people from a GM town throw at you about driving Fords. One day I was running a little late and arrived after the customers were lined up to get into the service department. after I parked and walked over to the service department, a customer yelled at me "hey why are you driving that Ford" I stopped and looked down at him and said hey you are the one inline for service. I have to drive something that will get me here to repair that GM junk you drive.
 

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I love forums with no moderators. Very entertaining. lol
By the way....I don't care for dealers either. Especially the bullshit up-sell like air conditioning service on a system that blows ice cold air. I feel sorry for the people that don't know better and fall for their up-sell of fake ****.
I agree with the entertaining comment and see no real harm in something that to some seems off topic, I don't care to play "moderator" and chastise people for digressing from the mainstream topic.

For the same reason as you I have misgivings about dealers, I'm mostly completely self serviced, but in the past even when going in for warranty work on vehicles the dealers have tried to sell me unneeded services, those who are informed regards cars can reject these attempts, but for many who are not they are often easy prey for unscrupulous dealer tactics and I don't care for those who justify that sort of thing by saying they are delivering a service albeit overpriced and often unnecessary, eg fuel system service, bottle of techron for $50. Scam.
 
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