Hyundai Forums banner
1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
109 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hi guys!
We all want to know what is wrong with hyundai’s engines. Since company doesn’t tell the truth, every bit of information can be helpful for us to find it out.
So today, I invite you to talk about the BSM (Balance Shaft Module), for our comfort, used to reduce the vibration when the engine revs between 2000 and 3000 rpms.

Can it impact the oil flow?

There is a mechanic in Russia that rebuilds engines. He inspects, films and explains what he found on broken engines and then tells what and how he will fix and then, he films the result and uploads to the youtube. He did already quite a few Hyundais and Kias.

Recently, he uploaded the video of the G4KE on Kia Sorento 2011. They were fixing something else on that car and then it started knocking. Disassembled the engine and found seized rod bearings, apparently from the oil starvation. But this time his attention also called the BSM (Balance Shaft Module). When he was inspecting it, he saw sings of seized bearings inside of the BSM. So he was looking for a replacement and get an incredible good offer for used one (4 times cheaper than new). They said it was removed from crashed car with clean engine. So, when he got it, he sow metal shavings on this module also and decided to tear it down (pita if you want to assemble it back again).
So, he opened it and found the internal construction to be too complicated for what it is. There is a labyrinth of oil passages that the oil must pass before going father to the engine. The oil pump is fitted inside of this module. And the size of the oil pump is twice smaller then on the G4KD engine (he compares it on 8th minute).
Resuming, he says this module is unnecessarily overengineered and may cause or at least contribute for the oil starvation on the other parts, like on the rod bearings.
He also compared this module with two different BSM modules from others car makers, from the engines he once rebuilt, how simpler they were.
Here is the youtube link, he speaks in russian, but you can see the engine internals:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2-DYGepLZc

What do you think about?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
109 Posts
Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Here you can see were this module is placed on Sonata LF 2.4
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,477 Posts
But, its less of a parasite and increases MPG and HP.... its the variable dual stage oil pump

Balance shafts are for NVH control. See, they catered to the masses and produced garbage. In the ol' days, many engines were friendly to balance shaft removal. This design(cassette/cartridge), assembled by their oil pump contractor, makes for easier engine assembly. We just can't remove the BS out of it. Rumor is that the GDI 2.0 Forte ThetaII didn't use a balance shaft and might be a 'swap' candidate. This vehicle isn't worth perusing the salvage yard for parts and to see what does/doesn't fit. I wonder if the 2.0T is higher volume than the 2.4 since it has to feed a turbo also.

Complexity is for NVH and MPG. Too bad it led to failed engines.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
100 Posts
interesting video,

this adds to one of many possible causes of Theta II failures.

1. metal shavings from seized bearings inside of BSM -> oil passage holes blocked -> oil starvation -> seized rod bearings -> broken connecting rod

2. cylinder scuffing -> burning oil -> oil starvation -> seized rod bearings -> broken connecting rod
(as per Korean newspaper and forums)

3. low quality oil / lack of maintenance -> oil sludge -> seized rod bearings -> broken connecting rod

4. LSPI / engine lugging -> high pressure in cylinder / oil pressure not enough to handle high load -> damage to rod bearings
(my opinion)

Also, in Korea, they're seeing similar failures in Theta II MPI engines, so the problem is not confined to the GDI engines..


on a brighter side, on autotrader.com, there is a listing for 2015 sonata with 196,000 miles on it..

one could only hope that the failure rates will be much less for the newer models..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
109 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
That guy sais Hyundais was experimenting changing design and materials of the rods and bearings on their engines he rebuilt.
The new version of this BSM module for G4KE engine has a new part number and slightly different design. The oil entrance port now is placed in the middle instead of side, but he hasn't opened one to see internal changes.
He also was adding the oil pumps inside of the cylinders on 2.0 motors (like on 2.4 gdi), since there is a prepared already place for them.
Also, he uploaded another video about cat converter called it "chineese porcelain". Basicaly, it's quite brittle, and when it saturates it starts dusting leading to cylinder scuffs...
There, in Russia, most of the engines are still MPI, and still a lot of problem with cylinder scuffing and rod bearings seizing.
Many discassions too, since a lot of seized engines and, at same time, a lot with high miles and they are generally dependable and they last.
One thing for sure is a quality maintenance. Everything Deadrx7conv is always hammering about: more frequent oil changes with higher grades synthethics, higher octane gas etc...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,458 Posts
Hi guys!

The oil pump is fitted inside of this module. And the size of the oil pump is twice smaller then on the G4KD engine (he compares it on 8th minute).
Hyundai: we've shrunk the oil pump ! I think I've seen that movie somewhere before.

or Hyundai shows up Rube Goldberg in the Theta II engine design

I fell asleep before the end of the video, did he ever get that box back together or will that be a sequel ?

Why does that phrase "every bit as good for thousands less" keep popping up in my brain, some sort of subliminal message from seeing a Hyundai commercial ? Anyone else experiencing this ?:crying2:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
109 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
No he didn't put it back together, he still needs to get new one, since the used one he teared down had seized bearings too.
And in the end he anonced the next coming video of a Kia Seed with 17k km with seized rod (only one segment with 2 bearings). Saying the Kia put in a "crude rod".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
109 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Yes, it is not the same to watch something in language you don't understand. But at list you can se the internals and how the damages looks like.
Better than nothing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
341 Posts
.... Also, in Korea, they're seeing similar failures in Theta II MPI engines, so the problem is not confined to the GDI engines....
I'm not saying your statement above is incorrect, however I also never just simply accept as the truth what someone posts on the internet. But I always try to keep an open mind on this stuff, and am always ready and willing to consider new information.

So, can you provide a reliable source which shows that Theta MPI engines are failing in numbers that are beyond what would be expected of any auto make?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,458 Posts
No he didn't put it back together, he still needs to get new one, since the used one he teared down had seized bearings too.
And in the end he anonced the next coming video of a Kia Seed with 17k km with seized rod (only one segment with 2 bearings). Saying the Kia put in a "crude rod".
My 2013 SFS 2.0T has been solid, knock on wood but I'm not failing to acknowledge that the Theta II design is flawed and those flaws can probably be traced to decisions geared to keeping costs low. Reducing the size of the oil pump is a good example, in some cases other makers have tried that only to at some point go back to a more robust pump. And being too cheap to water cool the turbo - not great for longevity. Running a GDI engine at relatively low operating temps, not good for those you consistently use the vehicle for short trips, not at least recommending the use of synthetic oil - unwise.

For me I seen/heard enough evidence that it's not one of the better engines on the market, but the vehicle can be acquired "for thousands less" than competitors and of course it's "every bit as good"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,458 Posts
I'm not saying your statement above is incorrect, however I also never just simply accept as the truth what someone posts on the internet. But I always try to keep an open mind on this stuff, and am always ready and willing to consider new information.

So, can you provide a reliable source which shows that Theta MPI engines are failing in numbers that are beyond what would be expected of any auto make?
Back in HS I took 3 yrs of latin, remember a term still used in legal terms - corpus delicti , basically body of evidence. I really doubt that Hyundai will ever provide any meaningful statics, but back to the body of evidence:

- current US recall prompted by engine failures
- several posts by what appears to be experienced qualified mechanics (at least one employed by Hyundai dealer) who know the issues with Theta II
- a post on here citing a recent auto publication identifying the Theta II as one of 10 engines to avoid
- I posted last week suggesting that the Theta II failures may be moderating - and the forementioned Hyundai mechanic said not as his shop, they continue to come in, other posters have cited dealer sources confirming that the failures continue.
- Someone posted that currently only the 2011 Sonata is listed as a used car to avoid, time will tell on later yrs as the age/miles incrases so do the failures.
- credible postings cited the revisions Hyundai has quietly made to the crank bearings and connecting rods.

So it's the above and the continued flow of new information that points to some issues that have and may lead to the engine failing, I'd say difficult for anyone to get an accurate number, but to disregard all the various sources of information wouldn't seem realistic at this point in time.

Sure some of the failures are tied to improper maintenance, but it would appear that the Theta II engine has a number of weak spots that contribute to the failures .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
341 Posts
Back in HS I took 3 yrs of latin....
Anyone who spends even a small amount of time on these forums is totally aware of huge issues with the Theta GDI/Turbo engines. I would never question the validity of issues with those engines.

However that's not what my post was about. I'm asking about a statement made about the Theta MPI engines failing, and the MPI is not the same engine as the GDI/Turbo. The MPI has thus far never been included in any of the Hyundai/Kia recalls; and, with the exception of one questionable Canadian Facebook group, I've never seen any indication of a higher-than-typical failure rate of the MPI engines either. But, as I said previously, I keep an open mind and am always willing to consider new evidence.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,458 Posts
Darn, I wrote all that for nothing, thought my 3 yrs of Latin might finally be put to some use.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mmahamm

·
Registered
Joined
·
100 Posts
I'm not saying your statement above is incorrect, however I also never just simply accept as the truth what someone posts on the internet. But I always try to keep an open mind on this stuff, and am always ready and willing to consider new information.

So, can you provide a reliable source which shows that Theta MPI engines are failing in numbers that are beyond what would be expected of any auto make?
link to Korean article on this issue
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
341 Posts
Thanks for posting your source of information. The translation from Korean to English seemed to go around in circles a couple of times, and it was difficult to figure out exactly what the main point of the article was supposed to be. They mentioned noisy engines a few times, but very little on actual MPI failures. And it sounded like the Korean equivalent of a class action lawsuit was rejected due to not enough participants. But perhaps the translation software I was using was not the best product available.

I'll file this one away under 'possible but unconfirmed' issues with Theta MPI engines. Time will tell if anything further shows up on this in the future.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
100 Posts
Thanks for posting your source of information. The translation from Korean to English seemed to go around in circles a couple of times, and it was difficult to figure out exactly what the main point of the article was supposed to be. They mentioned noisy engines a few times, but very little on actual MPI failures. And it sounded like the Korean equivalent of a class action lawsuit was rejected due to not enough participants. But perhaps the translation software I was using was not the best product available.

I'll file this one away under 'possible but unconfirmed' issues with Theta MPI engines. Time will tell if anything further shows up on this in the future.
basically the article states that there have been reports of engine knocking when engines reach 80,000km - 100,000km mark, due to cylinder scuffing, similar to GDI engines.. people had to pay $1000-2000 to fix it out of pocket,, it does not mention that there were catastrophic engine failures, I guess that's due to some differences in engine design between MPI and GDI..

1017 people signed a government petition to initiate recalls, but for the govt to respond, it requires 200,000 signitures..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
235 Posts
basically the article states that there have been reports of engine knocking when engines reach 80,000km - 100,000km mark, due to cylinder scuffing, similar to GDI engines.. people had to pay $1000-2000 to fix it out of pocket,, it does not mention that there were catastrophic engine failures, I guess that's due to some differences in engine design between MPI and GDI..

There may be no correalation between these engines and the 2.4 liter engines sold in the US/Canada. Of the nine engines I've disassembled, half MPI and half GDI, none have experienced piston scuffing. The GDI engines have added a feature not present in the MPI, spray nozzles for the pistons/cylinder walls. These are common on diesel engines and used to cool the pistons: beats me how scuffing could occur if proper oil quality and maintenance were observed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
235 Posts
Anyone who spends even a small amount of time on these forums is totally aware of huge issues with the Theta GDI/Turbo engines. I would never question the validity of issues with those engines.

However that's not what my post was about. I'm asking about a statement made about the Theta MPI engines failing, and the MPI is not the same engine as the GDI/Turbo. The MPI has thus far never been included in any of the Hyundai/Kia recalls; and, with the exception of one questionable Canadian Facebook group, I've never seen any indication of a higher-than-typical failure rate of the MPI engines either. But, as I said previously, I keep an open mind and am always willing to consider new evidence.

There is no comparison between the 2.4 liter failure mode or rate for the MPI vs. GDI engines. MPI failures typically were localized spun conrod bearings, GDI are catastrophic conrod bearings failure/seizure. I am not aware of the official MPI failure frequency but in no respect does it compare with the GDI failure rate.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
109 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
According to that guy from the video, the piston scuffing usually is caused by the cat converter, when it starts dusting. On that car from the video it was already removed previously.
He also said that 2.0 is basically 1.6 with bigger cilinders, but same rod, and that is a problem, it doesn't hold well the added stress.
The oil pump is good. And it has the spots for thouse spray nozzles, apparently, the manufacturer silently started to put them now.
Generally he says, the G4KD was beter made and sturdier. And he is getting a lot of calls now from Hyundai and Kia owners, all for same reason - engine knocking...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
109 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I messed up my last post.
It was related to another 2.0 engine - G4NA from Hiyndai i40 2014.
It was consuming oil, and at some point the owner hasn't added in time and then the engine stalled, seized rod bearings...
1 year later was rebiult for that guy.
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Top