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Discussion Starter #22
Some people say you can use a shop vac to blow air up the exhaust pipe to find a leak.
Good stuff -- found some discussion and Youtube videos on this. My baby shop vac doesn't have the blower side, so I guess I'm going to invest in the grown up version now... or maybe I'll use the leaf blower ?
 

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Any tips or tactics for finding an exhaust leak? I won't get another chance to look at the car until maybe 10 days from now, but I want to continue to chase this down.
If you have a vacuum cleaner or Shop-Vac using blowing output side, that you could adapt to tail pipe outlet to pressurize exhaust system. You could then use soapy water in spray bottle to look for bubbles when spraying possible areas.

The exhaust gaskets, head to manifold and flex joint (if equipped) areas would be most suspects. Only need to be concerned from #2 O2 sensor forward, since I can’t imagine any leak afterwards having an effect.

Edit: LOL… Looks like Drunken Elvis beat me to it…. Thank you very much. :D
 

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Discussion Starter #24
If you have a vacuum cleaner or Shop-Vac using blowing output side, that you could adapt to tail pipe outlet to pressurize exhaust system. You could then use soapy water in spray bottle to look for bubbles when spraying possible areas.

The exhaust gaskets, head to manifold and flex joint (if equipped) areas would be most suspects. Only need to be concerned from #2 O2 sensor forward, since I can’t imagine any leak afterwards having an effect.
Got it. I may employ the leaf blower instead, as my Shop-Vac is an old cheapo with no blower output side (yes it has exhaust, but not a hose fit for it) -- or maybe I'll go get the grown up Shop-Vac. :)

There is a flex joint in the setup and I'm beginning to gather they're a known leak hotspot (in general), in addition to not being too obvious about showing the naked eye when they have a leak. So I'll take all this tactical to everything from the engine block all the way down to the downstream O2 sensor, flex joint and other joints included.
 

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.......... I found lots of people asking about the same phenomenon for the Accent (and some other Hyundais), burning through oil faster than this one and at much lower age/mileage to boot. And further, they were being told by their dealers that the consumption is within manufacturer spec.

In my mind the oil consumption is... I kind of do an instant "say what?" in response to the idea that it's normal. But I have no way to disprove the assertion. Simultaneously, I have no way to prove that even if it is normal, it won't eventually cause problems, soooo... dunno.
Right-On .... Typical stealership service kind of answer along with an alignment, several different flushes and of course brake service will most likely improve the problem.:rolleyes:
 

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The second O2 has no effect on the ECU fueling. It is only there to tell you the condition of the cat.

When looking at lambda it should be at 1 when in closed loop. It may did when accelerating a bit but mostly at 1 99% of the time.

Looking at the primary O2 on a graph is a good indication of fueling. It should be quite rhythmic in it's oscillations got through the extremes.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
Right-On .... Typical stealership service kind of answer along with an alignment, several different flushes and of course brake service will most likely improve the problem.:rolleyes:
When the owner forked over $120.00 for diag to the local dealer, their recommend was to replace the purge control valve and the in-tank fuel pump... for something way north of $1,200.00. I replaced both myself as part of this exercise, with genuine Hyundai/Kia parts and at a cost of well below four figures, and neither improved the problem in any way. Clearly the issue is that I did not ignore their recommendation and get the service department car wash for $2,195.00 instead ;)

The second O2 has no effect on the ECU fueling. It is only there to tell you the condition of the cat.

When looking at lambda it should be at 1 when in closed loop. It may did when accelerating a bit but mostly at 1 99% of the time.

Looking at the primary O2 on a graph is a good indication of fueling. It should be quite rhythmic in it's oscillations got through the extremes.
Got it. This is helpful. I thought it was the first O2 that mattered here with the second only functioning as you describe, but I wasn't sure. 100% appreciate the explicit clarification -- thank you.

My Accent burned a qt every 3k miles when new. It's down to a qt every 7500 miles now. 174k miles on the engine.
That's wild. But it also indicates that that's normal, so -- cool. Appreciate that data point. It helps a lot. Out of curiosity, what oil are you putting in and what's your change interval?
 

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I use Mobil 1. It spent most of it's life on 0w20. A couple of years ago I went to 5w30 Hi Mile Mobil 1. That made a slight change to less use but nothing remarkable. I actually add a 1/2 qt when it needs it and at ~7500 it's down another 1/2.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
I use Mobil 1. It spent most of it's life on 0w20. A couple of years ago I went to 5w30 Hi Mile Mobil 1. That made a slight change to less use but nothing remarkable. I actually add a 1/2 qt when it needs it and at ~7500 it's down another 1/2.
Cool. I moved the owner of this one from dino oil (handled by whoever they were taking it to) to High Mileage Mobil 1, 5w20, middle of last year (oil changes done by me). The car is cycling through oil so fast (it gets a ton of highway miles put on routinely) that I did some math and decided to put the change interval at either 10k or 15k -- I forget the exact number, I'd have to check, but you get the idea. The 5w20 is manufacturer recommend, any thoughts on that vs 30?

(side note: at one point we tried 10w but the car seems to like 5w a bit better).
 

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It seems strange to me that there are such divergent experiences with the Accent. Some people have oil consumption. Some have pinging. I wish there was a way to do a survey asking model year, miles driven, oil used (traditional or synthetic), frequency of oil changes, brand of filter; fuel used (top-tier?), frequency of additives. (And, whether they'e having any listed issues like oil consumption, pinging.).

There must be a common denominator. Maybe it's only people who drive the car hard? Or, use synthetic oil? Or, cardboard FRAM oil filters? There's gotta be something common to the people experiencing that.
 

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Most don't get the ECU updates because the cars are so reliable and they never know of them.

I use a fram Ultra filter and change it every other change at 15k miles. It's the best filter you can get for the Hyundai spin ons.
 

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I use a fram Ultra filter and change it every other change at 15k miles. It's the best filter you can get for the Hyundai spin ons.
That's what I mean. I use official Hyundai filters, traditional oil (Quaker State 5/20), and change every 6 months or 2500 miles. If there were a way to survey a sizable group of RB owners about these things (and whether they experience certain common issues), I bet something common would show up.

EDIT: I haven't had a single ECU update (since I got my 2013 in August 2012).
 

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Discussion Starter #34
It seems strange to me that there are such divergent experiences with the Accent. Some people have oil consumption. Some have pinging. I wish there was a way to do a survey asking model year, miles driven, oil used (traditional or synthetic), frequency of oil changes, brand of filter; fuel used (top-tier?), frequency of additives. (And, whether they'e having any listed issues like oil consumption, pinging.).

There must be a common denominator. Maybe it's only people who drive the car hard? Or, use synthetic oil? Or, cardboard FRAM oil filters? There's gotta be something common to the people experiencing that.
In this case it was a leased vehicle (likely meaning dealer-serviced), purchased by owner #2/current owner around the 33K-mile mark, fed fuel and oil as it demanded; owner checked for oil level but not much else in terms of maintenance unless the car clearly had something wrong (or it was oil change time based on interval). Though I grouse about the oil consumption, having new oil put in the car so routinely (due to consumption during piles of highway driving under owner #2) as backstop has likely kept it in better shape internally in some ways than a lot of cars.

Owner #2/current owner drives the car very gently. They'll annoy you if they're in front of you and you want to exceed the speed limit. ?

One of my major observations is that the coils were likely borderline a long, long time ago. I suspected them a year ago but they tested within FSM spec. The last year of experience has made clear to me that they should have been replaced when I got my hands under the hood of the car 12+ months ago. The longevity of coil packs is not an area of strong familiarity of mine, but based on what I've seen in this car I'd probably be replacing them anywhere between the 60K and 100K mark on general principle, subject to whatever more data might suggest is the best swap time.

I think there may have been a P0420 when I first got my hands on the car, which pointed immediately to O2 sensors; but the car was well above 100K miles at that time so no big surprise there, and swapped both sensors out.

The biggest behavioral improvement in the car, even despite the P2191, came from changing the plugs (Jan 2019) and then from changing the coils (late 2019) and then from changing the plugs again (the last set was definitely unhappy from the aged coils).

I suspect the car can and will do well if well-cared for, especially if the oil changes are using synthetic; and even if not cared for it looks like what you end up with on your hands is a certain kind of general weirdness instead of some sort of clear kaboom. I'm definitely annoyed by the P2191's persistence, but when the CEL is not in the way the car is a reasonably peppy little thing. My hope is that the last problem will turn out to be an exhaust leak -- at that point the story begins and ends with "you needed to fix the leak, replace the duh-they're-old O2 sensors, replace the old coils, and replace the plugs that got jazzed by the combination of leak-driven fuel dumping and old coils."

Just my $0.02 and best guesses, we'll see if it pans out.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
All: just added to the thread title (so it will help any readers if this mystery gets sorted) that the car hunts at idle when in D or R. Does it a little bit in P as well, but it's most noticeable in D and R. It's also better after code clearing; at first start it will bounce a little, stabilize, but will return as part of routine behavior after a couple of drives.

Given the whole fuel trim angle I'm not too surprised by the hunting, but anyway, FYI.
 

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That's what I mean. I use official Hyundai filters, traditional oil (Quaker State 5/20), and change every 6 months or 2500 miles. If there were a way to survey a sizable group of RB owners about these things (and whether they experience certain common issues), I bet something common would show up.

EDIT: I haven't had a single ECU update (since I got my 2013 in August 2012).
This is probably one of the best sites on the Internet for car info. Bob Is The Oil Guy | The Internet's Number One Motor Oil Site
 

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Idle on ECT engines is done mostly with timing. If the throttle body motor is not operating smoothly the ECU will use timing to try and control rpms. If youwatch the timing values while it is hunting for idle and they are swing back and forth then it is a throttle plate/motor problem. Could just be a dirty throttle body. My Gen Coupe did this, the idle would go up and down and finally stay high. It set a code after it got really bad. But it was easy to clean.
 

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Discussion Starter #38
Idle on ECT engines is done mostly with timing. If the throttle body motor is not operating smoothly the ECU will use timing to try and control rpms. If youwatch the timing values while it is hunting for idle and they are swing back and forth then it is a throttle plate/motor problem. Could just be a dirty throttle body. My Gen Coupe did this, the idle would go up and down and finally stay high. It set a code after it got really bad. But it was easy to clean.
Ah, cool. Good to know. If the hunting persists after I've found the hypothetical exhaust leak and hypothetically killed the P2191, I will look into this. Not that I don't want to check out the throttle, but definitely trying to stick to tweaking one thing at a time. Very helpful (again!) -- thank you.
 

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the car can and will do well if well-cared for, especially if the oil changes are using synthetic;
That's the sort of thing I'm getting at. Oil is often a religious topic. Synthetic may be better. I'm not really trying to say one way or the other. But, often synthetic is synonymous with "longer use." I wonder if that could be a commonality. Like you [edit: that was smashpdx, actually] said: burning oil may be beneficial because you can add fresh oil to the increasingly burdened. Wouldn't that same logic apply to using synthetic for 15,000 miles versus 3k (discardable) oil changes (with any oil, be it traditional or synthetic)?

I hope I'm not stirring anything up. I feel like I can see both sides. But, I feel like the longer periods between changes (just because synthetics can do that) might be a problem. For example, I've heard a few times that our GDI engine can put more fuel in the oil (washing the cylinder walls?). No matter how superior synthetic oil is, it's not designed to compensate for that kind of weakening.

I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud. I bet there is some common denominator like that. It's really hard to believe how varied people's experiences are (and how common some of the problems are, with just some people.). It seems like something's going on. (I'm not saying 'aliens...' but...").
 

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Discussion Starter #40
That's the sort of thing I'm getting at. Oil is often a religious topic. Synthetic may be better. I'm not really trying to say one way or the other. But, often synthetic is synonymous with "longer use." I wonder if that could be a commonality. Like you said burning oil is actually beneficial because you can add fresh oil to the increasingly burdened. Wouldn't that same logic apply to using synthetic for 15,000 miles versus (discardable) 3k oil changes with any oil -- be it traditional or synthetic?

I hope I'm not stirring anything up. I feel like I can see both sides. But, I feel like the longer periods between changes (just because synthetics can do that) might be a problem. For example, I've heard a few times that our GDI engine can put more fuel in the oil (washing the cylinder walls?). However great synthetic oil is, that would be a problem it's not designed to compensate for.

I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud. I bet there is some common denominator like that. It's really hard to believe how varied people's experiences are (and how common some of the problems are, with just some people.). It seems like something's going on. (I'm not saying 'aliens...' but...").
Your points and questions are reasonable. I don't want to veer too far off topic but here's my tangential contribution and explainer on why I have this Accent doing this particular oil thing.

I switched my 1995 Subaru Legacy from dino oil to Amsoil synthetic, with once-annual oil/filter changes, at about 71K miles. It helped a lot of things, but I'm well aware that that is engine-model-specific stuff. Still, haven't looked back and that car is coming up on 335K miles. Now, that's an engine that again had no oil consumption until over 200K miles, and it's not an Accent or even a Hyundai, and it's an MPFI engine with a shared coil pack vs a GDI (big difference) and individual-cylinder coil packs (additional big difference). Not to mention being 20 years-older tech, period. I mention it, though, because it's a time- and mileage-proven system -- at least in a context.

I basically ported that experience over to this Accent, knowing that it had issues and thinking that it likely had a specific need for a little de-gunking (read: cleaning properties of Mobil 1 or the like) under an owner who didn't understand that maintenance is more than "add oil and do oil changes" over the course of over 100K miles. In other words, my throwing synthetic into the mix of this specific Accent was part of an intentional triage and troubleshooting strategy to treat certain possible effects of long-term not-the-best maintenance (I also put some time into fuel system treatment, using a couple of strategies).

Over the longer haul, if this Accent didn't consume oil, I'd put the owner on the same regimen as my Subaru for simple cost-effectiveness and because I know it will hold. With this Accent's oil consumption rate though, it might indeed, as you suggest, reduce to "not a perceptible difference" once I've shaken all the weird out of the car.
 
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