[octavian]

Hey folks;
Over in the KYB shock thread, I posted some questions about alignment. If you wanted to see what I posted there, click here and start with post 163:
http://www.hyundai-forums.com/269-g...rear-shock-upgrade-kyb-shocks-ordered-17.html
To sum up, local shop did not have specs for a 2013 alignment, so they used the TSB pdf I got from the US hyundai HMA site here:
https://www.hyundaitechinfo.com/
I have attached the PDF to this post as well for your reference.

Unsatisfied with the work the local shop did, I took the GT to a local dealer, who also did not have the alignment specs for the 2013 GT. So after a couple of days, I was called and told that the alignment computer at the shop was now programmed.

So, I have looked at the PDF provided by Hyundai USA, and the values used by the local dealer, and they appear different to me, but maybe I am just not reading it correctly.

I have posted a screen capture that has both the values in the PDF, and the printout given me by the dealer. Can a few folks who know more than I (ie. anybody) take a look and let me know what you think.

 

[cbzdel]

They looks almost identical to me, the differences would be splitting hairs..

FRONT (factory) [dealer]
Caster (3.75 to 4.75) [3.7 to 4.7]
Camber (0 to -1) [-1 to 0]
Toe, Total (0.08 to 0.32) [0.10 to 0.30]
Toe, Inv. (0.04 to 0.16) [0.05 to 0.15]

REAR (factory) [dealer]
Camber (-1 to -2) [-1 to -2]

The rear toe I am not sure how to read.. I am not a pro, just my take on the numbers..

 

[OkieRich]

Guess I'll get a readout on mine in the morning, just to check the values as it sits, now. Taking the Hyundai TSB specs with me. Since I'm getting new tires, it make sense (to me) to have it at least checked for free. Tires are an investment, now days. Didn't used to be, but they are NOW!

I should have bought a rubber plantation in SE Asia.

 

[Rich_Can]

Rear alignment with rear disc trailing arm suspension and specifications. I feel that this has to be taken to a higher level of quality control as it poses a safety factor in my opinion of the handing of a vehicle on dry, wet, snow covered roads, and braking. A tire that is wearing uneven or excessive will not have the full contact with the road. If the rear alignment is out of spec the part needs to be replaced, as I would deem it defective in my opinion. You just can’t grossly increase the values of the rear alignment specifications to compensate for quality control in my opinion. You paid good money for the car and it should be right the first time. In my own opinion cars with rear disc brakes should have independent rear suspension with adjustable camber and toe.
Octavain I had a look at your alignment printout for
11/23/2013
Camber - left rear -2.0 to -1.0 yours -1.8
Toe - left rear +.05 to +.25 yours +.45
Total toe - rear +.05 to +.50 yours +.55
Alignment printout for 7/17/2013
Camber –left rear -2.0 to -1.0 yours -1.9
Toe -left rear .00 to +.50 yours +.30
Total toe -rear .00 to +1.00 yours +.45
As you can see we have two different values on the print outs. Looking at the given factory values. The toe on the rear printouts went from a (+.25) to (+.50) max setting. While looking at the total toe on the rear factory values. Now shows it went from (+.50) to a full (+1.0) max setting.
In my opinion looking at the print outs I see that the rear total toe and rear toe is out of spec on the 11/23/2013. But for some unknown reason I see the total toe and toe values were grossly increased on the 7/17/2013 showing that it is within spec. I keep rubbing my eyes and still see these numbers grossly increased. If camber was out also on the same side I would ask if the car was damage by a curb, pot hole, etc.
The only thing I would try on the rear suspension is the two bolts that mount the solid rear axle arm in place, I would loosen them. Then I would try to Move (pry) one side forward and tighten the bolt and the other side moving (pry) rearward and tighten the bolt hoping that the toe will be even on both sides, considering the total toe is in factory spec in my opinion.
I hope I didn’t offend anyone as I am not a mechanic.

 

[octavian]

Thanks Rich_Can. I sent my Nov. alignment printout to a guy in Hamilton who is looking into the possibility of a shim etc. to correct the rear.

 

[octavian]

Still having tire wear issues, etc. so I decided to tackle the alignment again. I saw over in this forum that a few forum members had great success with shims installed in the rear, so I decided to investigate this for the GT.

So I had Scott at Can-Align do my alignment today and I can say I am very happy. Here is his website: Can-Alignment

I told him my issues with the rear hopping around and tire wear. He took a look at my alignment and asked me if my car was hopping/pulling to the left when I hit bumps, snow, etc. and I confirmed yes. He mentioned that my rear left wheel was not aligned properly, and after taking the wheel and takes off, confirmed that he could use a shim he had to do the rear.

He did not do much with the front (he said he did a small adjustment), and did not do anything with the rear right wheel. He did use a shim on the rear left. He took about 2 hours total. Was quoted $250 and tax for two shimmed rear tires and front aligned, but was charged $200 as only one shim was used. He did not use Hyundai's numbers btw....

Fellow forum member warpdrive came out as well as he lives close by. The three of us chatted it up a bit, and I took a look at some things that warpdrive had done with his car, and vice-versa.

In my 1.5 hours since I have had the car (over one hour on a dry/slightly wet freeway, a bit around town) I have noticed:

1. The rear hopping that my car still had that was not corrected by the KYB shocks now seems totally gone. This car handles totally normal now when hit manhole covers, railway tracks, and metal gaps on freeway bridges.

2. Car seems to 'roll' easier. I never had much pulling on highways, etc. but the car just seems to go easier now.

3. I ran through a small patch of snow at 40km/hr and where the car used to jerk a small amount to the left, it did not do it this time.

4. Car seemed quieter on the highway

As mentioned, so far very happy. For those who have issues with the rear of the car hopping around, I suggest you have your car aligned with shims first. If that does not work, try the KYB shocks.

I have posted some pictures of the alignment before and after numbers. But keep in mind that the after numbers posted for the fronts are not correct (he was not done). I can't read all of them, but I assure you that the car handles much better than before. He only made a small adjustment to the front after I took these pics. The attached pics are for reference for the rear only.

 

[warpdriv]

Nice to meet you today Octavian. Good to read that you felt a noticeable difference after the alignment. I must say that Scott at Can Align impressed me with his "can do" approach to the alignment.... to make the corrections needed to get your GT tracking straight and hopefully with no further rear tire wear.
This was the third alignment (at least) on your car and first who was able to adjust the rear where your problem seemed to be.

Keep us updated as you drive the car a bit more .... but sounds so far like you have now found the sweet spot.

 

[octavian]

Great meeting you as well warpdrive. Will have to do it again sometime, with pints involved.

Alignment passed the wifey test. She noticed tonight that the car "rolled easier". She did not notice anything about bumps, etc.

 

[Rich_Can]

Hello
Octavian I am very impressed with your outcome of the alignment. As stated in my post http://www.hyundai-forums.com/269-gd-2013-elantra-gt/214818-alignment-my-2013-elantra-gt.html with the current problems that I have read about on these cars had me believe that it was the shocks and torsion bar. The rear alignment was the problem. After the alignment, the drive home is what a new car should feel like. I am not trying to start anything here (trying to be diplomatic about it). I don’t like to be miss leaded in anyway by means of padding a problem. I want the problem fixed. Congrats again Octavian on fixing the problem.
The question I would ask is that since the car has these shocks and sway bar installed, I would consider it now modded. What would the handling, ride, be for you if you were to have kept the original shocks (R&R shocks) and remove the added sway bar. Would it be a softer ride, less noise? The reason I would be asking is that most of us really don’t drive our cars to the limits. I know that my car is great and I would not dare add anything to mod the suspension, it would destroy the ride I have right now.
I am a firm believer that when designing a car there are many aspects involved in the geometry of its design. And adding mods you are just throwing out all that work the tech did and sacrifices tire wear or road handling at your expense and making a company (aftermarket richer).
As stated before it’s not just this manufacture but others that have similar problems. To have this type of rear alignment values that are overly grossed and not dealt with leaves the car in an unsafe driving condition. Modding the problem is only padding it. The first step is to have the alignment checked.
There should be a sticky on rear alignments.
These are my own opinions as I am not a mechanic.

 

[octavian]

Hi Rich;
While I did add the KYB shocks, I did not add the sway bar. My understanding is that the sway bar adds stability when 'cornering,' which was not something I desired.

I too, wonder if fixing the alignment would have negated the need for KYB shocks. I have the old shocks here still, but I have no need or desire to put them back on.

Took the car out for a few more drives this evening over various roads, including a very bumpy road...the car handled them like a champ.

While the KYB shocks saw the most dramatic improvement for me, the improved alignment sealed the deal. I just wonder how far the alignment would have gotten me.

 

[SaurianFire]

For your information the stock rear alignment numbers are:


Camber -1.5° ± 0.5°

Toe-in 0.25°(+0.2°/ -0.15°)

 

[litesong]

This car handles totally normal now when hit manhole covers, railway tracks, and metal gaps on freeway bridges.

2. Car seems to 'roll' easier. I never had much pulling on highways, etc. but the car just seems to go easier now.

My Elantra(Epsilon Lyrae) rolls very well & I get spectacular mpg. I do have the rear wheel hop, but will not touch Epsilon Lyrae, until the good rolling & mpg stop.

 

[Rich_Can]

Hello
Elantra GT 2013
Front Caster 4.24 ± 0.5°

Front Camber -0.5 ± 0.5°

Front Toe, total -1.5 ± 0.5°

Front Toe, Individual 0.06 ± 0.1°

Rear Camber -1.5 ± 0.5°

Rear Toe, total 0.5 (+0.5 / -0.4°)

Rear Toe, individual 0.25 (+0.25 / -0.2°)

These are the alignment specifications given by Hyundai tsb 2013 *please note there is a max and a min.


With the grossly max settings on the rear individual toe, leaves the vehicle in such a tolerance that quality control is passed (it’s in spec). As we know in the alignment world that there are numbers that can’t be allowed in the (side to side) total, thrust angle, sai, camber, caster, wheel base, toe, and scrub radius.

With these specs that are supposed be “to the tolerances”, are leaving some these vehicles with driveability and handling problems. What fears me is when it feels like the back end of the car is going to slide out from under you or a wheel hop. If a tire leaves the road it loses traction. If a tire slides it also loses traction. On weather enhanced roads this becomes more unsafe. Your tires wear is a log file of how the car is handling. Rotating the tires more often is only masking the problem to all 4 tires. Congrats again Octavian on fixing the problem
These are my own opinions as I am not a mechanic.

 

[SaurianFire]

Quote:
With the grossly max settings on the rear individual toe, leaves the vehicle in such a tolerance that quality control is passed (it’s in spec). As we know in the alignment world that there are numbers that can’t be allowed in the (side to side) total, thrust angle, sai, camber, caster, wheel base, toe, and scrub radius.

With these specs that are supposed be “to the tolerances”, are leaving some these vehicles with driveability and handling problems. What fears me is when it feels like the back end of the car is going to slide out from under you or a wheel hop. If a tire leaves the road it loses traction. If a tire slides it also loses traction. On weather enhanced roads this becomes more unsafe. Your tires wear is a log file of how the car is handling. Rotating the tires more often is only masking the problem to all 4 tires. Congrats again Octavian on fixing the problem


While I general agree with you, the Elantra does have handling problems that have nothing to do with alignment. Specifically with wheel hop when going over bumps or pot holes and body roll, which is caused by weak spring and damper/shock rates. This is the reason the KYB shocks are so popular.

Even with the wide tolerances Octavian's car was out of spec for total Toe-in so the car's rear end was not tracking straight enough. If it was not clear, modifying the rear suspension to very close to factory optimal specs improved his car's drivability problems.

I realize you didn't say this but even with a perfect alignment if tires are not rotated often enough they will wear poorly/ unevenly.

 

[octavian]

I realize you didn't say this but even with a perfect alignment if tires are not rotated often enough they will wear poorly/ unevenly.

Simple things such as your route to and from work can affect your tire wear depending on the condition of the roads, etc.

For me I have my tires rotated every 3000-4000kms. The exception was this summer, when I made a 7200km trip...I had the tires rotated just before, and right after the trip. I did not check the tire tread depth for wear at that time (should have).

 

[N5S-Matter]

Adding onto this thread a little late, but I got some numbers today, and I have two areas of concern. Left rear toe is at .55º, Left rear camber is at -1.3º and right rear camber at -1.8º.
The camber in the right rear is easily viewed from the back of the car. Here's the printout.
I'll be taking this info to the dealer Saturday to see what they propose, since the LR toe, and RR camber are absolutely outside their specs.

 

[pyxen]

wow dude...that's really out of whack!

I can't find any instructions on adjusting the camber on the GT..any links available?

 

[N5S-Matter]

ya think?

I set an appointment tomorrow at 11:00 since I was missing work tomorrow for a doctor visit. I should have some kind of results tomorrow afternoon. It really doesn't handle like you would expect. The rear camber probably lets me corner as nicely as it does, but that left rear toe has got ta go! It's got to be eating that tire up.

No, I have no info either.

 

[pyxen]

I need more front camber...my track tires are getting eaten up really bad check out the positive camber in the attached pic!

Are camber bolts universal then? I know theres a good set for the veloster that work on the GT, but would any 14mm (?) camber bolt be ok?

 

[N5S-Matter]

Looks like you're ready to roll....sideways lol.
I just need a neutral street setup with all 4 pointing in the same direction. I'll never be on a track.
As for the bolts, you're asking the wrong guy. I'm the Sgt Shultz of suspension.