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#1 Old 01-30-2012, 04:06 PM
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texasvan
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Elantra ABS

I'm checking out a recently bought 02 Elantra for a friend. While checking the front brakes, I see a toothed wheel and a sensor on each front wheel. The ABS light doesn't work, and two fuses marked ABS are missing from the box under the hood.

I figure someone removed the fuses in response to the ABS light being ON while driving.

What I don't understand is the rear drum brakes. I see no wires or sensors there or any evidence of any in the past. Is the Abs only on the front?

Ron
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#2 Old 02-16-2013, 09:07 AM
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Let me first offer a three-years-late reply to the queries raised in this thread by texasvan. All four Elantra wheels should have ABS sensors, paired with toothed reluctor rings; but note that Elantras do not have in-rotor drums for the emergency/parking brake.
ref. Senior Forum Member MikeNH's assertion:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNH View Post
.... the drum inside a rotor is pretty common, but it is not used on the Elantra. The cable operates the caliper piston and uses the normal brake pads to hold the car in place. The only other car that uses this setup is the Tiburon, all the other Hyundai models with rear discs use the drum in rotor for the e-brake.
texasvan also refers to missing ABS fuses......
I would strongly recommend NOT using a vehicle with ANY suspicion of the ABS system not functioning entirely correctly: but note that dealers' road-testing will NOT find the occasional (intermittent) faults encountered by many Hyundai owners (see* below).

Yesterday, my wife's 2001/2 Elantra just ran into a immovable tree at 20mph..... this was very frightening, especially for our daughter, but fortunately nobody was injured. I was also amazed that the battery and radiator remained intact despite both being shoved back several inches; as the impact centred just inboard from the left headlight.
After an initial slight slip on a patch of black ice, the brakes were applied gently as we tried to follow the adverse-camber curve to the right. But the brakes just locked on, and we found ourselves sliding uncontrollably; with NO braking OR steering for three or four seconds; until the inevitable collision with a large tree in the gassy verge. This was on a recently-surfaced residential road: where groups of school-children were walking only a half-hour earlier!
I have been searching for the cause of this very experienced driver completely losing control at such low speed; and wondering how to solve the ensuing predicament: how to avoid a repeat occurrence. I shall come back to my thoughts on this later....
*My online research (only a few hours, last night) has so far uncovered many reports of complete but intermittent Hyundai ABS system failures, in Elantras, Santa Fes, and some other models. These ABS failures sometimes resulted in brakes completely failing to operate; increasing stopping distances, often with disastrous consequences. Other driverrs report skidding with the brakes locked-on, as happened in my incident yesterday.
The originating causes are very often 'unknown'; but several possibilities are raised. Many incidents were reportedly in wet, snowy or icy driving conditions, suggesting possible false readings by ABS sensors. Some systems were apparently 'fixed' by the replacement of parts, or 'servicing' the ABS module and system. Brake-light pressure-switches of poor quality are also known to have been fitted for many years: some years' vehicles were even recalled to have replacements, but many owners of other years (and other Hyundai models) report similar switch failures. I believe our car was not included in that faulty-switch recall; but its pressure switch has now failed, and the brake lights remained ON after the tree crash. I had to remove the secondary battery fuse to diconnect those lights. I wonder whether an electrical input from the failed pressure-switch might have contributed to the ABS control unit to temporarily malfunction.
It may be that removing the two ABS fuses (as texasvan's previous owner/servicer appears to have done) is actually a safe option: because if the ABS is not electrically powered, surely it can't fail! I will thoroughly consult local experts re using this solution on my wife's car; as it is obviously the cheapest way to go. DO NOT REPLACE missing FUSES without thorough ABS safety checks: this could re-activate a dodgy ABS system with potentially fatal consequences!
If necessary, I shall physically remove the ABS entirely, simply rejoining the brake pipes in the traditional non-ABS manner. A car with reliably functioning non-ABS brakes is ALWAYS preferable to one with a usually functioning ABS system which may fail for no apparent reason at any moment, with potentially fatal results.
Some Hyundai dealers have reportedly never found the cause(s) for these intermittent problems; as the brakes apparently operate 'normally' after the reported incidents. We'll not be paying any dealer a huge sum to inspect the brake system: as it now APPEARS to be working OK again! To rub salt into their wounds, Hyundai (manufacturer) often wouldn't pay for the repair or replacement of these intermittently-faulty systems, even though they know that dozens of them have caused accidents of varying severity over the years.
Hyundai appears to have been content to rely on the impracticability of assembling scientific evidence, collected from Hyundai owners world-wide, to prove the manufacturer culpable.
But is this the best way to build a reputation for reliability, safety, and after-sales care?
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#3 Old 02-16-2013, 02:25 PM
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It's entirely possible you don't have ABS. You might simply have ABS axles installed in place of non ABS axles. Take a picture of your brake master cylinder and I'll tell you for sure.

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#4 Old 02-16-2013, 03:57 PM
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if it is rear drums you do not have ABS...
XD Elantras, at leas from what I read, with ABS were all 4 discs, while non-ABS discs and drums.
As for the sensor. Are you sure you are looking at ABS sensor? Toothed disc or toothed ring can be standard thing, or simply previous owner while replacing parts did not put exactly same parts. ABS and non-ABS discs are same except the toothed part.

The best way to tell if you have ABS is to track brake lines.
First for to the reservoir. From there track lines down from master brake cylinder - if you follow the shortest one and reach the brake caliper at the wheel and found nothing on the way - there is NO ABS.
If you find a device (large one, with wiring harness) this is ABS pump.

As for fuses - it is not always true, but in some cases you will not find spades holding the fuse on both sides. Only one will have a spade, or there can be none.
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#5 Old 02-16-2013, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrummagemFlash View Post
But the brakes just locked on, and we found ourselves sliding uncontrollably; with NO braking OR steering for three or four seconds;
very typical behavior. Why? Keep reading...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrummagemFlash View Post
These ABS failures sometimes resulted in brakes completely failing to operate; increasing stopping distances, often with disastrous consequences. Other driverrs report skidding with the brakes locked-on, as happened in my incident yesterday.
ABS will ALWAYS increase stopping distance. The only exception is ABS with EBD (ElectronicBrakefroceDistribution), meaning rear wheels will get more braking power under some circumstances.

Now, let's get back to you or ABS failure.

Question one.
What kind of tires do you have on the car and how much thread do they have?
Question two: how quickly were the brakes applied?


So, tires is the ONLY mean of contact with the ground. No ABS, no anything else makes any difference if tires are poor.
Then, there is a way to trick ABS to lock the wheels (what happened with you).
If the surface is slippery enough - wheels can instantly lock. Second (tires again...). Third - on wet or snowy road one can slam the brake pedal and at the exactly same time pull handbrake. ABS mainly relays on rear sensors. If they say: wheels are not turning ABS may assume car is not moving.
Well, it does not work with newer cars anymore as speed is also included in ABS input...


Let's get back to your accident.

20 mph? Sure it was 20 not 15 or so...? It is very possible at so low speed ABS simply did not kick in as it is designed to turn OFF at low speeds.
Then, if the wheels locked, why did not you simply release the brake?
Now you blame the car (or to be exact - Hyundai) for the accident to happen. You also say - black ice... sure, all of it played a role, but it is the DRIVER who makes all decisions. Not black ice, not ABS, not trees.

Was it cold enough for black ice to form? Slow down.
Do you regularly check the cars brakes including DOT fluid changes? Maybe this caused the ABS to malfunction?

So many possible explanations, but never blame myself, right?
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#6 Old 02-16-2013, 04:53 PM
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Lots of Elantra with tone ring on right front axle, and there will be signal generator to produce signal,, this signal is used for vehicle speed,, look at the left front, you wont find a signal generator, and the missing ABS 1 & 2 links say no ABS... follow lines off brake master to a HECU..

Elantra come disc-drum, and 4 wheel disc,, the 4 wheel disc more likely to have ABS as an option.

Wheels lock and car slide, sound like non ABS to me, plain old everyday braking.

ABS,,, our lot covered with ice this morning, owner has a tour bus parked beside building parallel with drive,, I was doing about 10 mph and hit the brakes to ride the ABS on purpose... kept humming-bumping the full length of the bus and another 20ft or so before the car finally stopped

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#7 Old 02-16-2013, 07:29 PM
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It looks like nobody here is listening: just jumping to unfounded conclusions.
Sorry PLP: you didn't manage to see my second-line confirmation that Elantras do not have drum brakes. You apparently also didn't read that I am a "very experienced driver"; and then continue to talk down to me in a patronising way.

Well, I am a very experienced bike-rider, car and van driver, and a time-served mechanical engineer; and I am not some know-nought rookie.
I learnt to drive on a banger-racing track in the seventies; before I could even afford to learn to drive on the road.
I also worked for many years at Lucas Research Centre on various projects, including the electron-beam hardening of diesel-injector components for CAV; a hi-tech brake-part casting project for Girling; and the manufacture of NiCd batteries for HGV & PSV usage (some even trialled on Royal Navy sub).
Our car's tyres were all well-treaded, including two recently replaced.
I did say that I applied the brakes gently: I do know how to drive on ice and snow!
For at least three months, since we bought the car, the Elantra's ABS system was apparently working properly, just like the system an a 1997 Lantra which we owned two or three years ago.
We also previously owned a 1998 Lantra estate without ABS; and I loved to slide both deliberately on empty ice-covered roads. But the Elantra is my wife's car and I was being careful, just trying to take a very gentle curve at low speed with our daughter as a passenger.
If the brakes had not locked I could have easily rolled around the corner without any problem!
But on Friday morning, without any warning, the ABS just failed with the brakes jammed on. After this incident, I drove the car back home very carefully; but I managed to test the ABS along an empty bit of road; and it was again working apparently normally.
As I said in my painstakingly accurate submission of earlier today: in just a couple of hours I found many online reports from other owners or drivers whose Elantras and other Hyundais ABS systems had let them down in potentially lethal fashion. Most complainants say their brakes failed to operate properly, or failed to operate at all. But others, just like me, say their brakes stuck on with their wheels skidding! Either way, the car instantly becomes dangerously out of control!

Be assured that I have nothing to prove: I'm not even making any insurance claim, as I'm sure I'd be confronted by disbelievers just like in this forum. And just as other complainants report; the intermittent ABS fault won't be repeatable on demand, for some 'expert' investigation.
So, I am justly putting the facts online for the enlightenment of those who are able and willing to listen. If you choose to disbelieve me, that's your prerogative; and I pray my truth will not be confirmed to you the hard way.
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#8 Old 02-16-2013, 08:26 PM
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Post-post script:
Interesting how sbr711 says he can deliberately make his ABS work down at 10mph; yet PLP believes our Elantra's ABS won't work at 15mph!
I always thought that ABS systems are generally set to operate at any speed over about 4 or 5mph; but what would I know?
And to those who don't know: the same car sold in America (and Asia) as "Hyundai Elantra", was labelled "Hyundai Lantra" for UK & Europe markets. This avoided potential copyright conflict with the UK-manufactured Lotus Elan. From 2000, it was labelled Elantra everywhere.
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#9 Old 02-17-2013, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrummagemFlash View Post
Sorry PLP: you didn't manage to see my second-line confirmation that Elantras do not have drum brakes.
That is a big surprise to me as I had 2004 Elantra and it had... rear drum brakes.
UK market does not have to be same as US market.

Then, you said it was your Wife, right? Not you. So why would you feel offended? I simply stated that ABS to work needs GRIP. Period. Plus it needs maintenance.

And why did I state ABS might not work at 15 MPH? Because of this specific conditions on the road, because of maybe simply locking all wheels. Maybe some other conditions.
Different cars, different years means different stages/versions of ABS. Some are designed to work down to 3-5 mph some will stop at 10 mph.

And OK, ABS could play a role in this accident, but do not blame IT for the accident. There are several things that happened: black ice, "stuck" ABS, your wife, too fast driving for road conditions, and I guess few more.


And - not to try to offend you - if you really are so great driver, I repeat my question - why the brakes were not released to steer the car?

Last edited by PLP; 02-17-2013 at 09:43 AM.
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#10 Old 02-19-2013, 11:33 PM
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Exclamation Elantras ABSent control of brakes and steering

Quote:
Originally Posted by PLP View Post
That is a big surprise to me as I had 2004 Elantra and it had... rear drum brakes.
UK market does not have to be same as US market.

Then, you said it was your Wife, right? Not you. So why would you feel offended? I simply stated that ABS to work needs GRIP. Period. Plus it needs maintenance.

And why did I state ABS might not work at 15 MPH? Because of this specific conditions on the road, because of maybe simply locking all wheels. Maybe some other conditions.
Different cars, different years means different stages/versions of ABS. Some are designed to work down to 3-5 mph some will stop at 10 mph.

And OK, ABS could play a role in this accident, but do not blame IT for the accident. There are several things that happened: black ice, "stuck" ABS, your wife, too fast driving for road conditions, and I guess few more.


And - not to try to offend you - if you really are so great driver, I repeat my question - why the brakes were not released to steer the car?


On the matter of rear drums on Elantras, I was actually quoting from another post, and also supported by the fact that brake shoes are not available for Elantra in the UK.
But, OK: maybe rear drums were optional for U/S market, but ABS is rarely (if ever) fitted to drum+disc combos..

On other subjects, you patently live in a hole different world: where you answer all comments with negativity and disbelief; but worse, you do this without actually first reading their posts properly.

You are so WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.....

1. Firstly, I said it was my wife's car; and not that she was driving.

2. ABS certainly does NOT "need grip" (or tyre-to-road friction) in order to work! Indeed, the opposite is true: all ABS systems work when your tyres have little grip, or actually NO grip at all!
Every ABS system should then RELEASE the brakes when wheel rotation speed APPROACHES zero.
Even with very minimal grip, wheels will then start to rotate again; and I should then easily have just rolled around that very gentle curve, in perfect safety.
As I stood by the car, checking all its under-bonnet damage, I watched several other vehicles regain control after starting to slip on the same piece of road. So there was certainly enough grip on the road for them to immediately regain steering control, as soon as they stopped accelerating or braking!

3. As a former Research Engineer with Lucas Research (which included work for Girling Brake Systems), I can categorically say you are talking rubbish about ABS at low speeds!
The fail-safe option on all ABS systems is designed so that the brakes operate as though there is no ABS fitted: i.e. the driver's brake-pedal pressure, as enhanced by the servo if fitted, is delivered directly to the brake calipers and/or cylinders. NEVER should the brakes' fluid pressure be locked on, so that lifting one's foot does NOT release the brakes- but the other morning our brakes stuck on, from the very first moment the ABS actuated, until colliding with the tree!
To argue about the minimum speed needed to allow the ABS to be actuated misses the point entirely: we know the ABS did actuate, as the brakes would've behaved safely as a non-ABS system, if the brakes were not locked-on!

4. I am unable to think of any maintenance procedure which could possibly have made the slightest difference: because any problem sensed by the ABS system should instantly make it switch itself out of the brake-pipe network: thus effectively allowing the brakes to be operated safely as a non-ABS system. But again: the brakes were tested straightaway after the incident, including deployment of the ABS system; and all worked normally.

5. AGAIN, I DID LIFT MY FOOT OFF THE PEDAL; BUT THE BRAKES REMAINED LOCKED ON BY THE FAILED ABS SYSTEM: there is no other explanation possible! And yes: I am a well-respected and expert driver; and I learnt to accurately read road-surface conditions whilst I was a potentially vulnerable motorbike-rider!

It is sad that an inexpert person might persistently refuse to believe my EXPERT testimony, and my experienced and considered scientific evaluation of all the facts.
This reflects mostly on how closed some minds be; assumably not wanting to believe that the next victim of an "unexplained" intermittent ABS-control failure might be himself !

I'd say that was very unlikely, statistically; but IT WILL HAPPEN TO SOMEONE !!
Thankfully, it won't be us next time: we will scrap every Hyundai ABS from now on... better safe than dead.

Hyundais keep going alright, with safe braking a most-times option!
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