Just bought a 2007 Entourage Limited in Sept. 2007 and I should of said something before I took possession of it the next day: when my wife and I first took the test drive I noticed when the salesman first started the engine there was a pretty loud "tapping" sound commencing to last about 5 seconds. "Well I thought, must be just that it was sitting on the lot for so long and the lifters didn't get a chance to pump up."

So my wife drives it for the next month or so and I just keep hearing this loud "tapping' at start up every time the car has sat overnight (tapping is especially louder in the morning when dead cold) or even when the car has been parked for about an hour - though the tapping isn't quite as loud. Needless to say even though the rest of the car is very nice indeed this is starting to bug me. A $34K car should not sound like a starting car with 150K miles on the odometer, right?

After perusing numerous Entourage forums (which aren't many) I figure it just might be the timing chain tensioner(s) as per Hyundai's TSB.

With this knowledge I asked the service manager at the dealership where I bought it to listen to the motor after it sat overnight. Two service techs come out to listen. One supposedly is a "Platinum Technician" and the other is just a run of the mill senior technician one supposes. After they heard the tapping sound for themselves they both agreed it must be the timing chain tensioner(s) per the TSB.

It goes into the shop the following week. It comes out after 2 days and 13 hours of service book tech time to take out the original timing chain tensioners and replace them with upgraded parts. It is a relatively major job.

I go to pick it up after service hours, start the motor with no mechanic around to listen, and there's the same %$#& tapping sound with not even a touch improvement. Craaaaaaaaap. So much for that Platinum Technician expertise!

Needless to say, the service manager next week will be hearing from me.

So I'd like to get some of your opinions with these points to consider

1). The TSB for the timing chain tensioner upgraded parts obviously didn't fix the problem.

2). I have read on one other Entourage forum that some surmised that their similar tapping noise could be due to how the oil filter is situated on top of the engine block hence not allowing enough oil pressure to build up fast enough when lifters or what have you are confronted with a cold engine much less high speed start up idle. IOW, possibly a built-in design anomaly that every owner's just going to have to live with. Not likely one explanation I can accept though.

3). In any event, this does not appear like it's going to be an EASY problem to DIAGNOSE. The fix will likely require a sizable engine teardown, down to and including possible lifter bodies and camshaft. Even then, tracing the root cause is going to mean leaving this van in the shop for quite some time I would bet and even then who knows if they'll get it right the first time it's torn apart again.

4). But, due to the fact that I don't have exactly a whole lot of confidence in the Platinum and senior service technician abilities so far to diagnose this problem at this Hyundai dealership close to me (and I don't want to drive 40 miles to the next one around me either to get a second hands on opinion) I'm thinking to nip this pain in the butt ordeal in the bud by calling Hyundai's customer care dept directly and getting a regional field service tech to get involved right off the bat before it turns into a delightful lemon circus escapade.

5). What bothers me more than anything else to be honest with you is how can Hyundai quality control at the FACTORY let something this noisy leave their line? Well, pretty much everything else on the car is aces so they did do some real quality control at the factory except for this little showstopper throwing water on the proverbial fire we'd be one happy camper. But we're not.

Bottomline: If any of you have an inkling what this problem could be beyond what I've indicated it would be most appreciated.

I sincerely hope this is not an inherent 'design flaw' in the Entourage engine that I have to "live with". To my way of thinking when and if I trade-in or sell this car one day I sure don't want to have to explain what this noise is to the potential buyer who then tells me, "I can't give you your asking price nor take it in for a trade-in because the motor obviously has start up noise issues."

Any insights or suggestions in general appreciated.

Entour2

The new 3.3 in the Sonata and our 3.8 in the Entourage and Azera have been noted as a bit noisy and high reving at startup. It has something to do with the oil pressure and how the filter is set up.

Do you get the noise when the AC & Heating system is completely off. There is a known tapping noise related to the AC compressor tapping quite loudly at idle when the sytem is turned on. There is more info about it here.

Just a shot in the dark but I experienced the compressor noise and it drove me nuts.

Hi Afob3-- We get it regardless if the AC is turned off or on. It again does it when it has sat awhile (1 hour+ or so) and definitely big time when it has sat overnight, (eg., dead cold).

I understand what you're saying about the AC compressor (I read that particular thread) and such but this is very clearly related to oil pressure issues in either a lifter or chain tensioner. We're pretty sure the chain tensioner(s) can be ruled out as they replaced them with the supposed 'upgraded' parts as the service manager told me - which does beg the question as to what about all Entourage's sold to date? Did all these come from the factory installed with the questionable tensioner parts? But that appears in our case to be a separate non-related issue that was purely discovered due to the chain tensioner TSB out there. IOW, they took an educated guess but it was wrong.

It would be very interesting to hear from other Entourage owners to see if they have the same lifter-like tapping sounds at cold startup. Anyone?

I have a feeling this will eventually get 'escalated' if indeed it has something to do with poor oil filter placement design. Beyond the obvious aesthetics, any excessive 'tapping sound' now when the motor is essentially brand new is most likely only going to get worse over time. It's never good when metal is hitting against metal without adequate lubrication no matter how brief.

Nonetheless thx, Afob.....I'll keep things posted as they roll along.

Entour2

This post has been edited by Entour2: Oct 30 2007, 09:19 PM

Hi Entour2,

Please take a look at this webpage:

http://www.kia-hotline.com/tech_info/tsb/b..._tsb_type=Local

I realize it's for the Kia Sedona (the EXACT same vehicle as the Entourage), but download the video and watch it. It really sounds as though they didn't fix the timing chain tensioners problem your vehicle was having. Take it to another dealer.

My 2006 Sedona sounded the same as in the video. The timing chain tensioners were replaced and it no longer makes that horrible grinding noise on startup.

Good Luck!!!

This post has been edited by thehothit: Jan 19 2008, 11:39 AM

Thx, hothit......that was very very informative. My next recourse when it goes in next week is to No. 1 request that this car does NOT get worked on by the same technician. Platinum Tech or not, he sucks. I'll tell you why too: After the supposed new tensioners were installed we drove it home. On the way back billowing clouds of oil smoke start pouring out from under the hood. Luckily we only live about 2 miles from the dealership. Knowing a bit about cars I knew this was way beyond just a little oil that got spilled on the exhaust manifolds.

Sure enough got home popped the hood and there's a big puddle of oil forming on the asphalt as the engine is idling - again with clouds of oil smoke pouring out. Basically made a U-turn with the wife and kids in tow and left it there that evening with a note to the service manager. Strike 1: The tech obviously didn't even test drive the car much less run the engine for at least 10 minutes at idle to check for leaks. Standard operating procedure for any competent mech - especially for a relatively major job as this. Again mind you he also didn't check if indeed the original problem was fixed either - that being the tapping at cold start.

It ends up a valve cover gasket was installed incorrectly - or in the tech's verbiage was installed with a 'pinch in the gasket'. This is Strike 2.

And of course The Big Strike 3: After supposedly spending 13 hours of book time replacing the 2 timing chain tensioners, he obviously didn't cold start the engine with someone listening with the hood open to see if indeed the tensioner replacements eliminated the tapping sound. And he also didn't do it when it went back for the valve cover leak. IOW, he rushed the job, screwed around in there and didn't bother to check if his work was done right. And if he did, he just ignored the tapping sound hoping no one would notice.

There you have it and I have already had it. The service manager will be hearing from me that in no uncertain terms is this guy to touch this car again.

Bottomline: I'll give this dealership one more chance to get it right and it had better be with some other genuinely qualified tech - if they even have one. If not, it'll be the 4th of July all of November with the dealership owner.

Again, thx!

Entour2

This post has been edited by Entour2: Oct 31 2007, 10:50 PM

Entour2,

I understand what you're going through.... I've been having probs. with one of my Sedona's Power Sliding Doors not always closing properly (usually on some kind of slight slope). I've been to two dealers about 7 times about it - they can never duplicate the problem. The fix appears to be inserting a simple piece of tubing to prevent the door from trying to close too far.

I had a little oil smoke when I got the van home from my dealer (about 5 miles) after the timing chain tensioners were replaced. There is a slight smell of burning oil 2500 or so miles later, but no visible leak and no apparent oil loss. I don't want them taking everything apart again, so I'll try and live with it.

My next trip to the dealer is to have the my passenger side power sliding door lock actuator replaced. The one on the driver's side was replaced a couple of months ago. It's making a horrible buzzing sound when I lock/unlock the doors.

Stay away from the dealer you went to - drive a little further to another one. It sounds like they don't know what they're doing.

Good Luck!!!

This post has been edited by thehothit: Nov 1 2007, 11:12 AM

I have the 3.3L engine in a 07 Santa Fe and it's as quiet as a mouse, cold or warm. There are times I have to look at the tach to make sure it's running. I wonder why the Entourage 3.3 is having issues.

Dave

Your engine trouble is most likely caused by a faulty check valve assembly on the pressure side of the internal lubrication system (oil). When you car sits for a time and all the oil drains back down into the oil pan the oil pump has to pump the oil back to the top. It sounds as if the assembly mentioned above is letting the oil in the filter assembly drain out. Due to the fact that the filter is on top of the motor. This will be louder and last longer the colder it is. I do not believe that this has anything to do with the timeing chain assembly. You will hear some valve chatter when the hood is up and the motor idling. The source of the tapping at start up is the oil pump running with out oil in it. The sound would not be a valve tapping as the old timers would say because this engine has over head cams not single cam with hydraulic lifters and so on.

P.S. the motor in the Entourage is 3.8 liters not 3.3. Also check out my forum dealing with the PSD's.

This post has been edited by cincyfirefighter: Dec 6 2007, 10:13 PM

And how do we fix this little 'problem'??

Cincy--

Interesting. Thx for the insight on that. If the oil pump is not putting out enough pressure due to a faulty check valve it would seem to have the potential to still affect the timing chain tensioners whether they were replaced with the new version or not. Both versions are oil pressure actuated.

Now if what you say is actually the main issue as to what's going on with our particular motor, then the lack of oil pressure at start up is an overall big deal indeed. Now you're talking about lack of umbrella lubrication to piston rods, crank journals, valve guides, etc., at start up. We all know what that does to engines over the long haul.

This is not good. So if you will, what's involved in getting this rectified? I assume it's a drop the oil pan deal and they have to go directly to the oil pump assembly and replace the check valve?

(Late breaking info: I just called a senior tech at another dealership. He said that his '06 Van which has the 3.3L motor but with the same basic design does the same thing. He thinks it's due to the inherent design of the top-side oil filter placement which causes the momentary clatter when cold. The clatter is likely coming from the chain tensioners whether they're the old or new version. You are correct regarding that there are no hydraulic actuated lash adjusters or 'hydraulic-type lifters per se' in this motor. All solid 'puck' to camshaft lobe mating surfaces. Now also according to him the check valve problem that perhaps you're describing was with a certain production date motor which in many cases required replacement of the entire engine as main bearings, connecting rods, etc., were running dry and getting severely damaged. Apparently there was a TSB that came out regarding that supposedly. He seriously doubts that a check valve problem is the case with our Limited however.

So, it gets interesting: inherent design 'feature' or is it truly something that can be fixed? Nothing's ever easy is it? )

Thx!

Entour2

ps. Btw, how do I get to your forum?

This post has been edited by Entour2: Dec 7 2007, 12:48 PM

Interesting issue. Hopefully there will be more info on it soon.

Is anyone else having this problem? My site includes a common repairs database. Though this assumes that there is a repair, and that this isn't just something that must be lived with.

Some DOHC engines still have hydraulic lifters. Not this one?

Our 07 Entourage was making all sorts of racket when we started up but that was pretty much taken care of by the timing tensioner repair. I note that both my 3.3 Sonata and the Entourage are a bit noisy on start up but the Sonata does better with Slick 50 and synthetic oil. I figure Hyundai has some work to do on this issue yet. In the meantime, I can live with the present state of affairs... both cars have had the tensioner repair and are a lot quieter.

It sounds like you need to get another mechanic at the dealership... I agree that it sounds like he was careless on your rig. There is little excuse for this type of problem getting out the door...

Ray :amen:

Entour2.

I have the same exact problem:( Did the same exact thing! Had the tensioner replaced hoping to solve it. It did not. Taps like **** for the 1st few seconds especially when cold out or sitting for an hour or more. I don't know if it is inherent to the poor design or if something is wrong, but I do agree that it has to be causing some engine damage. Mine was built in May of 06 so the tensioner TSB did apply, but as I mentioned it made no difference. The oil cartridge sits on the top and if you take the lid off the oil does drain out rather quickly. This is by design to be able to change the cartridge but I would think that some type of check valve would prevent it from draining completely. I started 2 other Entourages and two 3.3l Sonatas. The 3.3l were both quiet. One of the 3.8l made the same noise while the second one did, but to a lesser degree. The high rpm startup idle certainly does not help either. Please us know if you find anything. When I searched I could not. I figure that if it is a design flaw, Hyundai will be replacing the engine before the warranty expires!!

Hi Kensgn--

Very very interesting. Well, now I think we're really onto something aren't we? After my last post, the service manager contacted the southern California regional field service technician (or at least that's what I think they call him) and told him that her dealership was unable to diagnose nor fix the problem. The field rep then told her he would get back to her asap. The service manager made the call back around November 15, 2007 and assured me she would keep pressure on the field rep and would let me know very soon what's going on. So much for ASAP.

I'm waiting till about the middle of January before I make another call. This call will be a little more forceful.

My gut tells me that this is a problem Hyundai 'wishes' gets ignored by the consumer hence they're not exactly busting a hump to get it addressed else the field rep would've called the service manager with an answer by now. I would venture it involves some serious engine deficiencies that they want to sweep under the rug. Either way, someone's gonna have to pay the piper. I sure am not to going to pay it - especially on a $34K car.

If Hyundai doesn't want to fix this from my perspective they are going to have four choices: 1). put in a new upper half block engine assembly which includes all new heads, cams, etc., 2). replace the engine entirely, 3). give us a brand new Limited, 4). take the car back/refund all our money.

The car/engine runs fine but this issue will penalize me in the wallet big time should I ever want to trade it in or sell it down the road, guaranteed. Any prospective private buyer/dealer that hears that at cold start up will say no way will they give me what I'm asking. Can't allow that to happen.

Let's keep in touch on this. The more of us that band together the better.

Thx....

Entour2 (Dave)

This post has been edited by Entour2: Dec 24 2007, 09:57 PM

Dear Entour2,

Please, please do hold the regional field service rep to do his job!! do let us know if this is resolved to your satisfaction.

Two more things:

Read the binding arbitration booklet that came with your owner's manual. Be smarter than the field service rep on what you can do under binding arbitration.

Read up on the Lemon Law. If you bring your car back for the same problem 4 times in 10 months, you get to invoke the replacement clause. don't be afraid to quote the law to your field service rep.

http://www.yourlemonlawrights.com/state_laws/california.htm

Byron

Hi Dave,

Now that I see I am not crazy and someone else is having the same problem I called the dealer and told them I am dropping the van off tonight and I want the Service Adviser and a Mechanic to listen to it when it starts after sitting all night. I am not leaving the keys as I will meet them in the am to assure they hear what I am talking about. From what I could find there is no service bulletins or updates after the tensioner. One thing of note is how high rpm's go when 1st starting. I have worked on GM vehicles for 20+ years and have never witnessed the rpm's going over 1500 at start-up if the car was running properly. The Entourage shoots up b/t 2000 and 2500 rpm's! I would assume this is to get oil through the oil filter housing quickly to pressurize the oil system. I wonder if this is more of the problem then the solution. I wonder if everyone's Entourage rpm's go that high during start-up?
I'll post the outcome once I have some info....

Hi, Ken-

Glad to hear you'll have at least 2 techs standing there with you. Have them pop the hood with one guy with his ear real close to the motor for full effect. :grin:

Have a salesperson or whomever do the starting. The insulation on the Entourage with windows and doors closed much less the hood do a good job of muffling most engine noises such as this one.

I know this is a 'duh' comment to you but I'm doing it for the benefit of those who may not be quite up to speed on this issue.

Thx....

Entou2
Dave

This post has been edited by Entour2: Dec 27 2007, 04:22 PM

Ok here is the latest...Dropped Van off Weds night at 8pm to sit overnight for cold start up the next morning. Thursday at 8am Steve-advisor, Joe-mechanic and myself listened to startup. I was told this is normal and that a lot of the vehicles do this after sitting for a while. I said if this is normal it is the most horrific design I have ever come across! I was told it was lifter noise. I asked how solid lifters can make that sound and was told by Joe that they were hydraulic lifters. I stated that I had started 2 other Entourage’s and 2 Sonata 3.3L and none of them made this sound. I asked for documentation that I was there with this concern and was told that they would not write this up as it was normal and they did not want to start a Lemon Law issue!!!
I confirmed via various sites and Hyundai’s Service Website that they are indeed (MLA’s), manual lash adjusters-solid pucks-not hydraulic! Called Hyundai Customer Service(1-800-633-5151) a 9am to file a complaint. Spoke with Lynn, explained my concern and how the mechanic did not even know how the engine was built therefore how could he diagnose a problem? I stated that I feel there is a mechanical problem and I would like to have it fixed before severe engine damage occurred. Lynn is going to speak with the service department and get back to me with information as far as what to do next if anything. I got a case number and I am keeping documentation from this point forward. As well as the receipts for the TSB for the timing chain tensioner.

Joe(not Ken :) -long story!)

Hey Joe....

Just what the heck is going on with these Hyundai techs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????

Unbelievable. How in the h*ll does a dealer factory/ASE qualified mech not KNOW that these motors don't have hydraulic lifters and still work on them everyday?

Me thinks this kind of BS has to be coming somewhere from main company talking point memos or some such. There's no way they can all chime in about "lemon laws" and not have had this very same issue been brought up before by a different customer. Someone high up has told them...."Tell the customer this is normal".. ....and whatever you do don't even mention lemon law recourses.

I'm still having trouble believing what I'm reading.

Entour2
(Dave)

This post has been edited by Entour2: Dec 29 2007, 01:42 PM

Dave,

Here is the latest...no response from Hyundai consumer affairs. Call them back on Thurs and spoke with Josie this time. She was able to bring up the case from my call last week with Lynn. I basically told her the same information. Apparently the dealer never returned Lynn's call. Josie called the dealer again and supposedly left another message. I got the phone number for their corporate office in California, 714-965-3000. I asked to speak to an engineer and was transferred to yet another voice mail:( I will attempt to follow up again next week.... In the mean time a figured out a little trick to avoid the startup noise. If you hold the gas pedal to the floor while cranking it shuts off the fuel injectors. I crank the engine for a full 3 seconds and then shut off the ignition and release the gas pedal, respectively. Key must go all the way to the off position to reset before starting again. Turn the key and start engine, amazingly there is little to no noise! Leading me to believe that there should be some type of inlet check valve to keep oil in the galley between the oil pump and oil filter. Or there is one and it is not working??? Anyway until the mystery is solved that is what I have been doing when starting the van after sitting any length of time. If this is normal, then this is the worse designed engine I have ever had the pleasure of dealing with. I'll take my GM 3800 or LS engines any day of the week of this POS :(

As far as the dealer, having worked for one back in the day, I am not in the least surprised :( They usually have 1 or 2 guys that know what they are doing, the rest just go through motions.... Joe