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Thread: Brake fluid change DIY with pictures Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
09-27-2012 11:12 AM
nemohm What would be the recommended bleeding order?
07-05-2012 09:53 PM
polarfest This Guy is an awesome mechanic and has a bunch of nice videos. Here's one addressing the topic


Dan
11-02-2011 03:10 PM
OldSantaFeMan
Quote:
Originally Posted by skulldrinker View Post
this started out to be a very nice informative thread with pictures. But now it's just another dam presidential debate.
I'm sorry about this going off piste a bit, it wasn't my intention.

I now see where the confusion regarding 'Service Writers' has come from, in my mind the 'Service writer' is a technical author employed by the manufacturer where as Canderson is referring to what I would call a 'Service receptionist'. (With this in mind I agree with a lot that he says) Our problem is a great language divided by a big pool of water!

I apologize again and with that I'll shut up!!
11-02-2011 05:45 AM
skulldrinker this started out to be a very nice informative thread with pictures. But now it's just another dam presidential debate.
11-02-2011 12:38 AM
canderson A quick P.S. I'm headed out of the country tomorrow a.m. for 3 weeks. If anyone was expecting replies, it's not that I'm ignoring you, but I may be out of communications for a large part of that time.
11-01-2011 05:54 PM
canderson
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSantaFeMan View Post
In my time I've worked for three major vehicle manufacturers in Service, Training and Sales. Your, so called, Service writers only write what they are told to write by the design engineers ...
Whoa, whoa... stop there. The Service Manager is the one telling these guys to write up the 'extra' services. The design engineers don't even get a vote (although they should) for what happens at the dealer. Those same engineers would cringe if they saw some of the things that service writers recommend to customers. Service writers OFTEN suggest services or service intervals that were never recommended by the manufacturer - either the by engineers or the even the bean counters.

Quote:
If you want I can post a document from an American site and an official USA Hyundai document stating brake fluid change intervals of 2 years. (This document is for a Lantra but would apply to other models)
I'm not particularly interested in the service schedule for a vehicle that has been out of production for 11 years, but hey, it might be entertaining. I'd be far more interested in any document that specifies such frequent mandatory changes for a Santa Fe, or at least something from Hyundai for a model within the realm of the CM period (2007 and beyond). Sounds like the Lantra had a design problem of some sort. That's not something you normally see recommended, even back in the pre-2000 era.

Quote:
Surely it's better to carry out preventive maintenance than wait for a failure.
That's a straw man argument. Nobody here is suggesting the elimination of preventive maintenance, just the correct application of preventive maintenance. If a service operation insists on asking to perform service that may not be needed, and does so because they refuse to perform simple tests or inspections to confirm the need, that's a problem.

Service writers are OFTEN recommending service or service intervals that have not been specified by the manufacturer.

Let's try something FAR simpler. Air filters. Would you change out a perfectly serviceable air filter simply because of a mileage chart? Or would you perhaps physically inspect the filter before making that recommendation? NOW.. extend that to brake fluid. Like an air filter, there is a fairly simple test that can be done to determine if it has moisture issues. However, in THIS case, you can bet that 99.9% of customers don't have the gadget to determine this for themselves as they do with an air filter (a simple visual check, in the latter case). So many wind up taking the word of the service writer who has absolutely no idea what condition the fluid is in.

Quote:
I am, surprisingly, largely on your side! Your contributions are invaluable but I'm not sure what you mean by Boat Payments.
Those extra, unnecessary services, and the $ they garner for the Service Manager, are what we lovingly refer to as his "boat payments". That expression is also used frequently by Click and Clack (Car Talk. Car tips, advice, and troubleshooting.). If you haven't caught their show, you've really missed some good fun.

Quote:
My whole 'argument' relates to the 'Tossers' who never service their vehicles.
The scheduled maintenance that is recommended by the manufacturer (see the little booklets in the glove box of a Santa Fe) will keep the 'tossers' pretty much out of trouble to begin with. If they don't want to follow that, it's on them. But that is NOT what is being addressed here.

I'm not interested in anyone breaking their vehicle due to lack of service, either. However, I AM interested in what happens when someone who does care for their vehicle rolls into a shop and unnecessary services are recommended.

"Sir, your transmission fluid is due to be replaced at 30,000 miles", when there's no hitch on the vehicle and no one has ever asked the customer about his driving habits -- that's just inexcusable, but at least the service writer can beg off with the "Well, that's the extreme duty recommendation".

It devolves to the 'recommended' injector cleaning every 15K, power steering flushes, etc., none of which are being recommended by the manufacturer. There can indeed me times where both of those might prove to be beneficial, but only if there's a solid reason for doing so, and an arbitrary service writer's schedule (and the need for that Service Manager to scrape up his 'boat payment') doesn't qualify.
11-01-2011 04:43 PM
OldSantaFeMan
Quote:
Originally Posted by canderson View Post
And the point I'm making is that FAR too often, service writers take it upon themselves to second guess the manufacturers' recommended service intervals (shorter ones and always to their own benefit, of course), or make up services that the manufacturer does not even recommend.

We've wandered a bit. The issue at hand here is specifically the so-called '"requirement"' to change brake fluid every 1~2 years. To that, I can only say -- Don't believe everything you read in a Wiki.

Tell me honestly -- do you suppose you have EVER met a service writer who would actually tell the shop to TEST the bloody brake fluid before recommending changing it out? Of course not. They really don't care. The tools are several and easy to find. Do you think they'd use it?

Two words: BOAT PAYMENT
In my time I've worked for three major vehicle manufacturers in Service, Training and Sales. Your, so called, Service writers only write what they are told to write by the design engineers taking into account extensive test programs in all climate conditions, from the Artic through Desert to Tropical rain forest, and what the consumer product suppliers recommend.

Everything in Wikipedia on the subject of brake fluid is, in my opinion, correct. If you want I can post a document from an American site and an official USA Hyundai document stating brake fluid change intervals of 2 years. (This document is for a Lantra but would apply to other models)

Surely it's better to carry out preventive maintenance than wait for a failure.

I am, surprisingly, largely on your side! Your contributions are invaluable but I'm not sure what you mean by Boat Payments.

My whole 'argument' relates to the 'Tossers' who never service their vehicles.
10-31-2011 05:01 PM
canderson And the point I'm making is that FAR too often, service writers take it upon themselves to second guess the manufacturers' recommended service intervals (shorter ones and always to their own benefit, of course), or make up services that the manufacturer does not even recommend.

We've wandered a bit. The issue at hand here is specifically the so-called '"requirement"' to change brake fluid every 1~2 years. To that, I can only say -- Don't believe everything you read in a Wiki.

Tell me honestly -- do you suppose you have EVER met a service writer who would actually tell the shop to TEST the bloody brake fluid before recommending changing it out? Of course not. They really don't care. The tools are several and easy to find. Do you think they'd use it?

Two words: BOAT PAYMENT
10-31-2011 03:49 PM
OldSantaFeMan "To prevent Manufacturers being sued through the courts they have to put Mileage/Time limits on 'Service intervals'. This is to negate the problem of the many 'Drivers' who have no comprehension of what happens under the bonnet/hood of a vehicle, these people would, if left to their own little world, never ever have their vehicles serviced then complain when they break down!!!"

This was the point I was making!
10-31-2011 10:22 AM
canderson "I could tell many horror stories of vehicles where the engine oil won't drain because it's too thick, low oil pressure due to there being no oil in the sump, brake fluid that's black with a high water content, spark plugs with no central electrode, induction pipes collapsed due to blocked air cleaners, diesel injectors long past their service life, frozen engines due to anti-freeze being many years old and diluted etc. etc. All of which could have been avoided if the vehicle had been serviced on time and in the correct manner!!"

Your horror stories are about those who obviously don't even bother to inspect these things on a regular interval, and don't replace things when they need to be replaced! There's a VERY wide gap between that and replacing everything on an arbitrary fixed interval known only to the service writer, especially one not specifically recommended by the manufacturer!

For each of the failure modes you mention:

1) Engine oil - visual inspection will have prevented this. Testing is available.
2) Brake fluid - visual inspection will have prevented this. Testing is available.
3) Spark plugs - geez, just PULL one and see how they look!
4) Air cleaners - LOOK at the silly thing!
5) Bad injectors - there would be a major performance or mileage issue
6) Anti-freeze - testing tools available at WalMart

My point isn't that these things shouldn't be inspected at intervals frequent enough to cause problems. My point is that NONE of the items above are likely to fail and require replacement at some specific time or mileage interval in all climates and driving environments, and you can bet that the manufacturer is betting on the conservative side most of the time. The idea that every vehicle's brake fluid has absorbed enough water every 1 to 2 years to require replacement is false. Period.
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