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cam belt change , TDC #1,

20K views 11 replies 4 participants last post by  blund 
#1 ·
Hi

My wife's -04 Getz 1.3l G4EA, won't start. Replaced the starter-motor, due to my own ability to ignore the obvious symptoms of "startermotor works, but engine doesn't fire, could this be due to the cam-belt should have been changed?"

Anyway, time to remove the fan-belts and such.. (A pure PITA in my opinion, I'm used to Peugeots. The Getz is certainly not work-hour-friendly in comparison.)

here is a pic of the cam-belt:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fh4eozzib8tjqfa/2014-04-25 19.46.20.jpg
all the teeths at countershaft sprocket are worn of, probably (hopefully? ) all att the same time in the first start attempt.

The local Hyundai dealer told me they just used to change cam-belt, and "look and feel " for faults. As a customer I would like my garage to do it the right way; disassembly of top end , visual and technical inspection of valve/cam/pistons. As a DIY I am probably going the "install new belt and see how that works out"-way.

Questions:
Anyone can confirm if the Getz experience any damage (valves/pistons/) from cam-belt faults?
(the engine was shut down , and wouldn't start again. Was not a catastrophic "at speed" failure.)
Going to check compression of each cylinder. Anyone with the 'cold' spec's for compression?

Where is cyl. #1 ? (near transmission or near cambelt ?)

How do I find TDC at compression stroke? Or more exactly how to recognize compression stroke.
(rememebemer the car have been tried to be started many times. The timing marks are easliy read, but i'm worried about getting everythin 180 deg. off.)
Can I use the TDC-sensor readout on a multimetre ? If so , where is this placed?
Or can I use the ignition spark ?!

Any help would be appriciated. Found the .ru pages with manuals, but they seem a bit cluttered (?)

Br
Blund
 
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#3 ·
Thanx for the "not wanted" answer.. :)

Be observant that the missed teeths are all where countershaft sprocket was in contact with the cam-belt, and was probably ripped off all in one go.

When I spoke to the dealership I tried to get them to order the head gasket in advance , just in case the compression test fails. They said they almost never ordered this , so wasn't eager to have this in stock for me... Customer friendly... :/
But positive in the way of maybe the valves usually survives?

Regarding timing :
If there is no difference between 0 deg. and 180 deg. does this mean there is a spark at exhaust-stroke also?? (like the 2-strokes engines have). This would explain the "no need to worry about" this way.
(timing marks: approx 1 o'clock at countershaft , 1200 at cam-shaft?)

Regarding valves ... this seems like a 'experts' job, or doable for diy-ers ?! new valve heads, valves and valvestems??? Special-tools needed?
(will probably send the top end to workshop for this job, and assembly everything myself.)

I guess I'll find out during the weekend . .
 
#4 ·
''Regarding timing :
If there is no difference between 0 deg. and 180 deg. does this mean there is a spark at exhaust-stroke also?? (like the 2-strokes engines have). This would explain the "no need to worry about" this way.
(timing marks: approx 1 o'clock at countershaft , 1200 at cam-shaft?)''

If the timing marks are lined up on the crankshaft and camshaft then the engine is at TDC and firing No !

''Be observant that the missed teeths are all where countershaft sprocket was in contact with the cam-belt, and was probably ripped off all in one go.''

If the belt shreds then the camshaft will stop turning but the crankshaft won't hence pistons hitting the valves
 
#5 ·
Update

Removed valvecover for finding compression-stroke to set both camshaft and countershaft sprocket at TDC. mounted new timing belt.

temporarely mounted the lower timing cover and the pulleys (the waterpump is a major pita, but with a ziptie as a temporary markup-mount it's more managable).
Anyway , after handcranking for several turns and verifying the timing marks still were correct the time for cranking by starter came ...

and .... Nothin ... not a sputter or a cough or even a BLAM. . .
after fiddling about with a (borrowed) compression-tester without any results at all (??) , I went "oldschool": a hose with a ballon stuck in the spark-plug hole:
No cylinders gave the ballon as much as a puff . . So I guess I have no compression at any cylinders (?! This seems a bit strange for me ?).
In other words , top end have to be inspected , I guess I'm expecting holes in the pistons and bent valves .. and a workshop bill . .
 
#6 ·
You could have bad valves, pistons, etc. If you're sure there is no compression, than that is the logical conclusion. If you did so much damage there is no compression anywhere, I wouldn't bother taking the motor apart, just get a junk motor. Probably that is not so easy for you as it is for me.

Are you sure you installed the new timing belt correctly? If you did the timing belt wrong, it could also give a no compression situation. I'd verify that all the sprockets line up with TDC before I continue.
 
#7 ·
The "get a junk motor" idea has ridden my mind for some time , I'll admit that.
Unfortunately this is not as easy (nor cheap) as it would seem. (Non-Eu country, with high prices.. )

As for the TDCs. I took off the valve cover, turned the crank-shaft until the inlet valves at cyl #1 (nearest cam-sprocket) opened, this indicating start of compression stroke. Re-verified this a couple a times , until I felt confiden (-ish) about crankshaft and Cam-shaft being at TDC. But as there was nothing at all...Do I have this 180 degr. off??
Still ... I would expect some compression. (I was not familiar with the instrument i loaned, therefore went " oldschool" with the baloon-trick.) I was expecting this to at least try to inflate. But I heard a "breathing sound" through the crankcase breather tubes when cranking by hand. This could indicate valves not sealing. But _all_ ??

Crankshaft timing mark :
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ydwz4y6trwiujlg/2014-04-30%2016.13.21.jpg

Cam-shaft TDC (possibly one tooth "to far" , I corrected this .
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qpxqb9p4b93u501/2014-04-30%2016.13.27.jpg
 
#8 · (Edited)
The "get a junk motor" idea has ridden my mind for some time , I'll admit that.
Unfortunately this is not as easy (nor cheap) as it would seem. (Non-Eu country, with high prices.. )

As for the TDCs. I took off the valve cover, turned the crank-shaft until the inlet valves at cyl #1 (nearest cam-sprocket) opened, this indicating start of compression stroke. Re-verified this a couple a times , until I felt confiden (-ish) about crankshaft and Cam-shaft being at TDC. But as there was nothing at all...Do I have this 180 degr. off??
Still ... I would expect some compression. (I was not familiar with the instrument i loaned, therefore went " oldschool" with the baloon-trick.) I was expecting this to at least try to inflate. But I heard a "breathing sound" through the crankcase breather tubes when cranking by hand. This could indicate valves not sealing. But _all_ ??

Crankshaft timing mark :
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ydwz4y6trwiujlg/2014-04-30%2016.13.21.jpg

Cam-shaft TDC (possibly one tooth "to far" , I corrected this .
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qpxqb9p4b93u501/2014-04-30 16.13.27.jpg
Hi,:)

Sorry to hear of your problems.

I wrote this once then lost it!:eek::(

IIRC when changing the Cambelt, Waterpump, Idlers, Belts etc. we just painted the marks with white enamel paint before hand, lined it all up and then away we went. FWIW we used Gate's parts with a Blueprint Waterpump.

It isnt in the interest of most Main Dealers to replace Idlers, Waterpumps etc. (although they seem to last well with Hyundais to be fair) when replacing the Cambelt and Drive Belts in order to save you labour costs, because if a Waterpump or Idler fails after they've fitted a Cambelt then they get some more business out of you! :eek: Having said this, our local Main Dealer is pretty good and states that this method of working has never caused problems in the past as most Getz parts are fairly bomb proof (I happen to believe them in this case).

On the petrol Getz I have encountered none have had Cambelt problems although they have all had their belts changed at, or before, 50K miles/5 years, using importantly, OEM parts (for OEM also see 'GATES').

For a decent cost effective manual (for all of the info you require) see here (he may export to Europe) as it's an Ebay sale and costs £3-4

HYUNDAI GETZ (PETROL) WORKSHOP SERVICE MANUAL ON CD | eBay

If I were you I would look to get another compression (usable) tester so as to make an informed decision about replacing the Cyl Head or Engine, I agree, often the old school methods are the best, but I wouldnt rely on the balloon test:);) The noise you refer to when turning the engine over by hand may well indicate problems, yet many engines, even when all is well, make similar noises when turned over by hand.

At a guess though, looking at the photo of the Cambelt, the valves would probably have 'bounced' and/or bent too (at the very least). The same happened to us with a Ford CVH engine, back in the day - CVH's notorious for Cambelt issues back then. That just bent the valves (low speed/start up failure) and all that was needed was a new set of valves and Head Gasket set (and lapping in) and all was well.

I hope that helps - good luck:)

Kind regards,

RB42:)
 
#10 ·
Sooo... after disassembly of intake and exhaust there is no doubt about the state of the valves:


Regarding TDC : I've misformulated myself:
".. turned the crank-shaft until the inlet valves at cyl #1 (nearest cam-sprocket) opened, this indicating start of compression stroke" should of course read "inlet valves closed , indicating start of compression stroke. The Cam -sprocket mark ia a hole in the cam-wheel , which should correspond with a notch in the head. At start of compression stroke the hole on camshaft are att approx 9 o'oclock position. The TDC markings were correct when I assembled, but with all inlet valves being bent, the compression test and my old school-test were all correct , but I was not willing to admit it.

Going to the shop (cylmo.no) with the head tomorrow, they seemed competent.

Blund
 
#11 ·
Update:

changed all intake valves, and guides.
assembled top end and she fired up!!

but I notice a sound when idling , as something catches on a belt , one time pr revolution.
its kinda "chugga chugga chugga " , not loud , not "scary" .. But probably not good.
I had the upper camcover off when starting and I noticed that the cam wheel seems to wobble a bit. (0.5-1mm) (Not sideways, up and downward motion, as if the cam wheel itself is not completely round). It's tightened to "almost-crazy-tight" - Nm.
I wasn't really paying attention when I assembled the camwheel, it was more of a markup," I'll check this more thorough later".
Is there a certain way the camwheel should be mounted? (which side is in , toward Cyl#1? I cannot see any differences of either side by eye.)

I'll have to disassembly the lower cam belt , inspect for something catches/wears on the belt. The Camwheel issue: disassembly the cam-wheel , mount in my drill and spin it to see if the wheel itself is not round? I'm hoping the Camshaft itself is not damaged...
 
#12 ·
Laaaaate reply .. I know
but as a knowledgebase:

the camshaft wheel has rim which should face the valve-side of engine.
This will true the camshaft wheel to the camshaft and the bolt just hold it in place. I had mounted it the wrong direction and the chugging sound was due to the camshaft wheel not going in a perfect circle.

Car put together and been running fine for 4 months.
Wife recently rearended a Mercedes , so looking for headlight , fender and other parts now..
 
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