Hyundai Forums banner

Will I have to have my 2.0t turbo rebuilt down the road?

24K views 45 replies 15 participants last post by  12GLS3.5 
#1 ·
My fellow workers have been telling me to stay away from turbocharged engines because they say that 5-10 years down the road the turbo will lose power or stop working completely. And that this will happend with every turboed engine. Anyone know if this is true? I love my SFS 2.0T but am I guaranteed to be in the shop paying big bucks to the mechanic to rebuild the turbo within the next 10 years?
 
#4 ·
I've put well over 500k miles on Saab turbos and never had one fail - one at 240k miles did have leaking oil seals but the car died in a crash before I replaced the center section of the turbo. Often times its the seals and center bearing only that needs replacement, it's sold as a cartridge, for something like the SFS 2.0T where it's integrated into the exhaust manifold- not sure if replacing the center cartridge is an option, a good portion of the cost likely would be in shop labor. There are also a number of companies that sell rebuilt turbos, I've rebuilt a number for friends Saabs.
I'd use decent quality synthetic oil or syn blend, I do but extend the oil changes to 6 ~ 7k miles . Not sure why Hyundai didn't water cool this turbo as I think it comes with that capability.
 
#5 ·
Not seeing much reason to worry. The 2.0t is derived from the 2.4 engine, and those have proven to be fairly reliable. As with any turbo vehicle, maintenance is key. This is no time to cheap out on oil, filters, and required maintenance.

I have seen turbo Sonatas with over 100K and still kicking. My own Red Sled (although a 2.4L) is approaching 110K and still runs very well.

I think OP is worrying for nothing.
 
#6 ·
My fellow workers have been telling me to stay away from turbocharged engines because they say that 5-10 years down the road the turbo will lose power or stop working completely.
your friends are kinda right, but a few inches off of the bulls-eye.
its not that the turbo will lose power, as say a battery will gradually lose its charge/power, but rather it just goes, and often quickly.

turbo's are extremely picky. they work in extreme conditions (500F - 1,200F) and rotate at well over 100,000rpm. a millimeter of clearance or wear on the bearings = and its over with.

  • Do turbo's last forever, NO.
  • Will a turbo last as long, as a healthy engine will? NO.
  • Can a bad turbo, destroy a good engine? YES (1.8T jetta lol)
Long time, powerstroke owners, dodge/mercedes/international Sprinter owners, Jetta 1.8t owners, faced a similar conundrum: do i rebuild this engine or scarp the while 150,000 car?
Modern turbos simply do not designed to last that long. some do, most dont.
For example, Ford executives came out and openly stated: "ECOBOOST is designed for a life cycle of 150,000 miles or 10 years even though EcoBoost’s turbochargers feature water-cooled bearing jackets." so what does that us? thats fords best numbers and best case scenario. you can go ahead and plan on NOT achieving 150k/10yrs in real world conditions.
But hyundai never came out and openly stated what their turbo's are rated for, life cycle wise.

turbo's can and have lasted 200,000 miles or more. unfortunately, many start experiencing shaft play(bearings failing) around 100,000 miles, and then self destruct around 125,000.

a lot of the failures can be prevented by being extremely meticulous with maintenance. using high quality oil, frequent oil changes, careful over-watch on gauges & dashboard displays for any possible warnings or failure notices while driving, frequent check ups, understanding climate & oil conditions, etc.
this is where the gimmick of turbo's being able to safe you on fuel comes into play. YES they create 'free' power, which can save on fuel; but you end up losing all of the savings on the meticulous care. a lot of people get mad at me for saying it, but turbo engines are a pain in the you-know-what.

i hope that answers your question.


I love my SFS 2.0T but am I guaranteed to be in the shop paying big bucks to the mechanic to rebuild the turbo within the next 10 years?
nothing in life is guaranteed. you're car faces a much greater risk of being totaled, than being in a shop 10 years from now, rebuilding its turbo.

enjoy your car & take great care of it. dont let anyone talk you out of love, with your pride & joy.
 
#7 ·
unless you own a car where the engine has to be removed to service the turbo(s) - some Audis for eg the cost of rebuilding the turbo (center cartridge kits ~ $80) or buying a reman $400 isn't all the excessive. Labor to remove/install of course will vary by car model, most turbos will give tell tell signs when the center bearing is worn and shaft end play can usually be checked fairly easily.

Having driven turbo vehicles since 1986 I remain a fan but only if it's a solid implementation which provides equal or superior power and fuel economy from a smaller displacement engine and the overall cost (acquisition/maintenance/repair is not significantly above that of a comparable na engine). Unfortunately I don't see all of those criteria met in the 2.0T in the SFS

But if ones follows Hyundai's strict engine maintenance I would expect most turbos in the 2.0T will easily outlast the warranty period. But that comes at the cost of 3k oil changes for many owners.
 
#8 ·
unless you own a car where the engine has to be removed to service the turbo(s)...
thats a little to simplistic. let me explain:

When the turbo bearings develop to much play, or for whatever reason the turbine shaft encounters to much play, any dislodged material from the turbo innards can enter the engine.
Mechanics often suggest to take the whole upper portion of the engine part to make sure nothing made it way into the combustion chamber. this way if you spend the money on parts & labor to install a new turbo, you wont find out the hard way upon starting the engine.
 
#9 ·
if it's on the intake side and the failure warrants that action - most turbo failures these days involve gradual wear of the seals and increase in center bearing end play - the catastrophic failures are much less common with the improved design and materials of the turbos , excepting those who mess with the engine management to get more boost . I know a guy who put a very high PSI turbo in his Audi and the thing came apart and sliced into his hood and yes destroyed the engine in the process.
Usually if that center bearing develops end play it will wear the seals and you start seeing blue smoke in the exhaust or oil in the induction ducts or you may hear a rattle from the turbo. But then again I would inspect the turbo for end play when I start seeing any symptoms or 100k in mileage - many others will not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Karaoke Kop
#10 · (Edited)
go to your locl junk yard, and ask to see a bad turbo. locate the shaft play by wiggling the shaft back & forth, and try to rotate the shaft while wiggling and watch how the blades touch the turbo housing. thats the problem. your blades will sheer off in tiny pieces.

a very exaggerated version of shaft play:


and in the video the guy mentioned that there is a destroyed Cat in the downpipe... thats from the blades sheering off and destroying the expensive catalytic converter. there goes another $500-$1000
 
  • Like
Reactions: Karaoke Kop
#11 ·
Can't say that sort of thing doesn't happen but with proper care and maintenance it's not very common , and I have seen and rebuilt turbos with worn bearings - the key to avoiding catastrophic failure is to recognize the tell tale symptoms - increased oil consumption, loss of power, less boost if you have a boost gauge and any rattle or changes in the normal pitch level of sound from the turbo - like a steady high pitched whine.

here is a link with some tips and explanations of how to avoid turbo failure:

What to do to Help your Turbo Last Longer - Turbo Lab | Turbo Lab

And no I'm not planning a trip to my local junkyard anytime soon - too cold and rat infested !
 
  • Like
Reactions: Karaoke Kop
#12 ·
Can't say that sort of thing doesn't happen but with proper care and maintenance it's not very common , and I have seen and rebuilt turbos with worn bearings - the key to avoiding catastrophic failure is to recognize the tell tale symptoms - increased oil consumption, loss of power, less boost if you have a boost gauge and any rattle or changes in the normal pitch level of sound from the turbo - like a steady high pitched whine.

here is a link with some tips and explanations of how to avoid turbo failure:

What to do to Help your Turbo Last Longer - Turbo Lab | Turbo Lab

And no I'm not planning a trip to my local junkyard anytime soon - too cold and rat infested !
your post nailed it.

that link you provided has everything i have been saying for years, which pissed so many people off, on this forum. lololol some the critics mentality is "just drive as normal". and thats not good.
 
#15 ·
yeah if someone skips oil changes for whatever reason or runs extend oci using dino oil with a turbo engine that could well result in problems. I think though a lot of owners that spend the time on these sites are more conscientious about maintaining .

A big reason a lot of the high end makers where a higher percentage of the vehicles are leased (BMW, Audi, Mercedes, etc) started offering free maintenance for 2 or 3 yrs is because a number of lessees just drove the car and didn't bother with things like oil changes
 
#16 ·
I miss the day that rebuilding was so easy. Rebuild my TD06 20G every 6-7 months. I hope my SFS 2.0T lasted longer than that LOL. Then again I don't plan to boost my SFS 2.0T @ 2 Bars of pressure like I did with my Nissa Silvia.

I used to run my Nissan low to mid 12 sec 1/4 mile all day long - but once I got older my knee starts shaking :D

Right now I don't eve know where is the Turbo at on my SFS 2.0T LOL


...I miss the SR20DTE :crying2:
 

Attachments

#17 ·
The sfs turbo is integrated into the exhaust manifold - making it that much more fun to rebuild. I checked xs boost and they have rebuilt ones for the KIA Sportage for $ 625 which gives an idea as to cost.
So look for the area wrapped in tin foil like a baked potato and if you peel back the layers you should see a Mitsu turbo in there somewhere.
 
#19 ·
#20 ·
Well they did mention what some of the SFS 2.0T owners have experienced - that the EPA mileage testing uses very light acceleration and thus those mpg numbers won't be achieved by a good many drivers.

I posted a link sometime back on here from a JD Powers study indicating that engine and transmission defects were on the rise after many yrs of declines - direct injection and turbocharging were contributing factors . This may be reflected in some of last few years overall slippage of Hyundai in quality rankings - at least the ones I say in the JD Power survey.
 
#23 ·
you shouldnt hate this thread, you should love it. this thread opened your eyes, thus helping you protect yourself from expensive repairs. you should be thanking those who shared the info.

5k is fine, as long as you dont tow, drive aggressively, etc.
i would suggest you install 0w-20 or 0w-30 around late October, to help the cold oil circulate easily upon start up. 0w oil is so sheer in the cold, it doesn't thicken, thus giving your turbo a greater flow of oil in the dead of winter, on the cold morning start-ups.
i don't have turbo engines, and i still use 0w-30. i mix 3 quarts 0w-30, and 2.5 quarts 5w-30. (in fact i just did it again last weekend)

cars naturally eat oil; even new ones. the more the oil is aerated, the more of it that is vented out by the crankcase ventilation system and burned off. by higher engine RPM's, heat, etc will all create more oil to be consumed. so keep an eye on your oil levels monthly.

otherwise, drive carefully, check the oil level, use quality oil and OEM filters, and understand that turbo's dont like heat. heat cooks oil. cooked oil reduces the oil and its additives to lubricate properly. not only does oil lubricate, it also absorbs heat from whatever it touches, and moves on/away.
 
#22 ·
Well, miles or months. Whichever comes first. They can and will stick it to you when you need some warranty work done.

Hyundai once told me it does not matter if there were only 10 miles driven since my last oil changed and garage kept since. If my 6 months came and went with out changing the oil... They can stick it to me >:D
 
#25 · (Edited)
It's not unusual for a 1.6 or 2.0 4 cyl racing engine to have a 12 qt or more oil capacity. As stated, oil also cools. So with a turbo, extra capacity is important.

Note that Hyundai has revised it's oil spec, both viscosity and fill amount:

Hyundai Santa Fe: Engine Oil. Repair procedures - Revised - Lubrication System - Engine Mechanical System - Hyundai Santa Fe DM 2013-2015 Service Manual

Scroll down for the turbo, it's not well marked.

Those who worry that some oil might be left with a Fumoto (which I have been using for 30 years) might note that the 2.0T capacity is 6.44 qts................. that's a spec I actually look for when buying. So considerable amount is always left in.

New fill spec is now 5.24 qts, not the 4.86 as listed previously and in the manual. I always found 5.0 to be OK, next change I'll see about an extra 1/4 qt.

Been using Mobil 1 or similar for at least the past 15 years. In 50+ years of self oil changes and maintenance, I can't recall ever needing to add oil. At least not on my cars, maybe a friends or neighbors.
 
#26 ·
To take a way a little bit of the FUD in this topic: Turbo cars have been around for decades and are still used a lot. Actually BMW started to use more and more turbos in their cars and they always religiously followed the NA line.

VolksWagen uses turbos (famous 1.8T in like a dozen of models) . Nissan uses turbos (think the Skyline-series). Subaru uses turbos (Impreza WRX). Mitsubishi uses turbos (Lancer, Pajero). Saab used turbos (remember the famous 900 Turbo but also any 93 and 95 model). Now Ford uses a wide-range of turbos (EcoBoost engines).

And then ; probably near 95% of all diesel-powered new cars sold worldwide have a turbo. Yes. Nearly everyone of them. While you can't compare petrol- and diesel-engine-turbos one-on-one, that still is a lot of turbos being used and manufactured and running in cars. And diesels are known for their longevity, right.

The turbo in the SFS 2.0T is from Mitsubishi, type TD04 (don't know the subtype). This turbo has been used for many years in many different cars, also other than Mitsubishis. The most famous application might be in the Mitsubshi Lancer (EVO) which has been the top-AWD rally-car for years. Those cars were driven often hard. Way harder than 'we' do in the SFS 2.0T. I doubt anyone has driven his 2.0T for more than 60 seconds at top peak power in the entire lifetime of the car. Simply because the SFS is not a race-car and you hardly can push the car that hard with the automatic ; it will shift to a higher gear if you hang around peak RPM+Torque too long, even if you set it to manual.

Turbo issues in the past are mostly due to lack of cooling for the turbo after a hard-drive. The oil cools the bearings of the turbo since those get very hot. Due to the exhaust fumes and friction. If the oil-lines to the turbo are very thin they also get very hot. When using mineral oil the walls of the oil-lines to the turbo might get clogged with cooked oil. Think of your frying pan after frying too long or the grill after a BBQ. As a result less oil can reach the turbo, increasing the temperature of the bearings which then can wear out much faster. Using a synthetic oil will help since that oil will cook less fast than mineral oil and won't stick that fast to the walls of the thin oil-lines (called coke), resulting in a more stable flow of cooling oil to the area around the bearings.

(Btw some turbos are watercooled but if IIRC the TD04 is oil-cooled)

The biggest problem with high powered turbo-charged cars was that people would drive them hard for a while and then come home, doing some burnout just around the corner to impress the kids of the neighbours (or to scare them) and then immediately turn the engine off. That was killing turbos ; the oil would cook, become coke, reduce the flow of oil to the turbo. The next time the turbo would get hotter and hotter until parts decide to stop working (well) or worse. You won't notice directly but over time there would be more friction in the turbo thus resulting in lower RPM (of the turbo) from the same amount of exhaust fumes and thus less fresh air sucked in the engine, resulting in less power. It's like covering the intake of your hairdryer a bit, it will blow less air but the device will become hotter since there is less cool intake air to cool it. If you ignore such a situation too long the turbo could totally break. But those occasions are rare, so far I didn't read a lot of them between the million of car-sales every year for the last decades.

In short ; a synthetic oil helps a bit, even though a normal mineral oil also works well. It's the temperature of oil that is an issue, not viscosity. When oil is cold the rest of your car is cold as well. Turbos don't change temperature from 50 degrees to 1000 degrees in a second. Don't drive your car hard when the engine is cold. A very simple advice, I doubt anyone does that. At least let your oil warm up before you start to redline your engine. After a drive ; if in doubt, let your car idle for another 10-30 seconds after a hard drive. That is not a bad advice with or without turbo, it is good to let an engine cool down a bit and distribute some cooler oil through all parts of the engine. It takes time before heat will be gone from a big chunk of metal. While you don't need to cool your engine or turbo with ice-cubes (lol) the 30 seconds of idling can cool down the turbo well enough to increase it's longevity.

Other facts ; a turbo isn't a magical expensive device. It can be rebuilt for a few hundred dollars. Lets exagerate and make it 1000$. If you drive 50.000 miles and pay 1000$ every cycle for a new/rebuilt turbo you are spending 2 cents per mile to drive your fun turbo. It is unrealistic that every 2.0T needs a rebuild after 50.000 miles since we all have a very big warranty on the car. So even Hyundai does not think there will be a LOT of problems.

Preventive maintenance is even cheaper. If only bearings and such have to be replaced you're talking about less than a few 100s of materials and perhaps another few hundred for labour. The fact that the turbo is integrated with the exhaust manifold might complicate facts ; perhaps a mechanic that has worked on the turbo of the 2.0T can elaborate a bit.

Anyways I'd worry more about the cylinder misfire thingy that keeps popping up combined with the cracked porcelain of the sparkplugs. Those messages keep showing up and if something goes wrong a head has to be lifted to check for damage and other stuff.

Also the intake valves getting dirty from carbon built-up because of the way of redirecting blow-by (air mixed with oil) from the crankcase back into the intake manifold is also not funny to read about. That is something for another topic, but I mention it to show the risk of a turbo-issue versus valve-issues in general, with both the 2.4 NA and the 2.0T engine.
The problem could be solved with an oil-catch-can but that seems to be in violation of the Federal Emissions law because well .. you're not burning the dirty oil but catching it and you have to empty that can and that often goes well in the garbage can (unless you bring it to a place that will recycle old oil).

How bad is carbon build-up on valves ? Have a look : https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=gdi+carbon+build+up&FORM=HDRSC2

If valves don't close properly (in any car) you will have less effective combustion (if at all) thus less power, worse mileage and worse. The risk of excessive carbon-build-up for GDI engines is 100%. That is one-hundred-percent. Not just a Hyundai problem, also Mazda, BMW, VW and audi. Follow the search, check the brands.

To 'fix' that carbon-build-up we need to clean the intake-manifold and the top of the valves. Not easy. Takes a lot of time. A specialist will charge quite some hours. Read more on the Sonata YF turbo subforum who have nearly the same engine, but a couple of years longer ; http://www.hyundai-forums.com/sonata-yf-turbo/134548-gdi-carbon-buildup.html
 
#27 ·
#29 ·
it's not water cooled - but a lot of variations in the TD04 line are water cooled. A few cooling lines to the turbo wouldn't amount to much additional cost, but as you point out it's mainly effective after engine shutdown.

What are the oil change requirements for the Genesis ? I'm puzzled as to why Hyundai wants 3k (severe use) oil changes whether it's dino or synthetic . Using syn and 3k oil changes is extremely wasteful IMO, but syn is proven to better for turbo longevity.
 
#32 ·
For some of you who have bashed Audi's 1.8T engine, let me just say this.... In October 2014 I sold my 2002 Audi A4 1.8T. The turbo lasted 12 years, yes that's right, TWELVE! And it's still going strong with its current owner whom I've stayed in contact with.

I now drive a 2010 Range Rover Sport Supercharged which I still have mixed feelings about. It's beautiful, 510 horse-powerful and handles well for a near 3 ton SUV. What I don't like is the supercharger. It had to be replaced on warranty after just 4 years and It was due to a bearing issue. This is because it is is self lubricating and does not require any oil flowing through it to keep it well lubricated which I call total bullshit on. I'll bet this would not have happened if the supercharger had an oil flow system on it like a turbo has.

All this to say that I beleive turbos are extremely reliable and WILL last you a long time as long as you replace the oil with a true synthetic oil every 6 months or 4 thousand kilometers. The biggest reason turbos fail is because the oil is not replaced as often leading to carbon buildup in the turbine bearings, leading to total bearing failure. Change the oil regularly, ALWAYS use synthetic oil and you should be fine. :)
 
#33 ·
For some of you who have bashed Audi's 1.8T engine, let me just say this.... In October 2014 I sold my 2002 Audi A4 1.8T. The turbo lasted 12 years, yes that's right, TWELVE! And it's still going strong with its current owner whom I've stayed in contact with.

My friend the Audi freak (he modifies and races the 4 cylinder) speaks highly of the 1.8T - but says stay away from the 2.7T which is known for turbo failures which require engine removal to service. I'm in CO and the 2.7T have been known to burn the turbos when run hard up mtn passes.

Some advise changing the oil periodically on superchargers and of course checking the oil level in the unit, like an engine if the oil is not at a certain level it can ruin the blower.

I'd take a blown 510 horses - that's an awesome amount of power.
 
#34 · (Edited)
Well I'll admit that launching it in sport mode is kinda fun and the sounds are intoxicating. :)

As for the 2.7ts. They're probably prone to issues due to it having 2 turbos and not a strong enough oil pump or oil cooler to circulate enough cool oil to both sides. I don't know as I've never had one but I can't really see any turbo failing unless it's not getting enough cool oil.

Thanks for the tips tech. I've tried looking for supercharger maintenance procedures on the Range Rover forums but there's very little info in that respect. That and a few of the members there are absolute condescending douche bags lol. I wonder if that has anything to do with owning these British cars.

"Spot of tea James?"

"Yes that would be delightful. Shall we have the servants fight to the death?"
 
#36 ·
You DARE criticize MY Range Rover? lol... Here is how I really feel about it (taken from the RR forums)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Having come from the German pedigree owning multiple VWs and Audis I'm still not too sure about my 2010 RRS S/C which I bought in October of 2014 so about 4 months. I bought it with an extended warranty and thank god I did because the car ended up needing over 8k worth of warranty work. Since then it is running great but there's still an odd feel I get from it. It might be because I'm coming from a world of 4 cylinder turbocharged cars as well as standard transmission but I feel like I have way less control over the car. It shifts for me and thinks for me but is not in tune with what I'm thinking. With my Audi A4 I could enter a turn and shift into the right gear to be sure i was in gear when coming out. This is proper technique to ensure smooth and fast acceleration coming out of the apex. Combine this with braking when entering and accelerating after the apex and you have an efficient means of taking a turn. In the Audi it was great because I had full control of all this but in the Range Rover it is a bi unnerving. The car is so powerful and nimble that it's great in the straights but terrible in the turns.

When entering turn it will stay in the high gear until you accelerate which is usually done at the apex. At this moment the car will shift into the lower gears to accelerate quickly coming out of the turn which can be dangerous in slippery conditions as it will jolt the car around a bit. The car should be in the right gear before entering the turn and hold that gear through the ingress and egress.

Of course putting it in sport mode makes it a lot better and in Sport Manual this problem is virtuAlly gone but in regular daily driver mode the car is unpredictable and jumpy. It REALLY wants to go fast even when you don't. I'm getting used to it more and more but I'm still missing the Audi.

All things considered the car definitely has a mind of its own and she is a thirsty bitch to boot but she has character and attitude and I think this is what makes her so lovable and hate-able at the same time. For me it's only been 4 months so I'm still giving my Rangie the benefit of the doubt. We'll see how things are after a year of ownership.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah Range Rovers are VERY prone to issues simply because, well, they're not that simple. Tons of bells and whistles, everything is doubled (Intakes, MAF sensors etc) so when it breaks down it is a huge needle in a haystack quest to find out exactly what is causing the problem. I can't wait for the summer to start taking things off and find out how to get at some of the most basic DIY items. and as for the simple job of changing something like the spark plugs? lol, forget it. It's tighter than a nuns yoohoo in there. No getting at the ones in the back unless you're willing to remove everything that obstructs the space needed to get your tools in there. Here is a picture of her.
 

Attachments

Top