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Old 01-25-2013, 04:22 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Duro5341 View Post

WOT - These engines actually run very very rich at WOT, or a hard blip of the throttle, actually it's not uncommon to get a thick black cloud out the tailpipe if not driven hard often enough.

FWIW, the tail pipe for my accent already has this "soot" build up you see in some diesels, but it is not a heavy build up.

This car loves Group IV oils (i.e. Mobil 1, Castrol Edge w/ Titanium (gold bottle), Kendall w/ Titanium). High quality Group III, such as Quaker State Ultimate Durability, Castrol Edge syntec (black bottle), etc. are also great for this car.
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:47 PM   #32 (permalink)
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We quickly learned to remove working center components of thermostat and by using only outer ring it would slow water down enough for radiator to remove heat.... not theory but actual experiences.
The thermostat not only brings the engine up to desired temperature by limiting the flow of water, but also introduces disruption, preventing laminar flow. Removing the thermostat contributes to a column of water (laminar) where the same area of the column remains in contact with the metal surface.

When you gutted your thermostat, it wasn't the body-shell restricting flow that reduced your engine's temperature, it was the turbulence which the shell continute to introduce.

It's not logical that water remaining longer in the radiator will cool the engine better. Why? By definition this means water remains longer in the engine, getting hotter, requiring more time in the radiator to dissipate its heat (however, radiation cooling isn't efficient. As the amount of heat to dissipate rises, the harder the cooling system has to work to do it.). It's a closed system that way. Trying to get more coolness in the radiator by slowing the flow is the proverbial "robbing Peter to pay Paul."

Also, consider high performance, heavy-duty water pumps. Their benefit is moving more water to increase the cooling system's capability.

Note: This doesn't prove light oil is ok in hot climates. Only that this angle of the discussion doesn't explain why heavy oil is useful. There may be a reason heavy oil is useful. I just haven't understood it yet.

If the cooling system is designed correctly (i.e., you're not experiencing overheating) the use of heavy grade oil seems to be unnecessary. If you do experience overheating, you've got a different problem (using the vehicle beyond it's cooling limits? requiring the addition of an oil cooler instead of using heavier oil which makes the engine work harder, and consequently, get hotter?).

If I were concerned about oil breakdown, I'd use synthetic oil which can handle heat up to 350F. But, I've read the leading cause of breakdown is oxidation, the result of oil turbulence inside the case, droplets flying around, churning, etc. Considering that, I've always felt it's cheaper insurance to just change the oil more frequently. I do about 2500 miles. Which, by coincidence, would also compensate for the effect of overheated oil (if it did occur).

There's definitely different approaches to improve oil performance. I don't disagree with that. The only thing I continue to be skeptical about is that engines run hotter in hot weather. The thermostat hides that to the engine (barring extreme summer use, such as towing up a long grade).
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Old 01-25-2013, 08:27 PM   #33 (permalink)
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The thermostat not only brings the engine up to desired temperature by limiting the flow of water, but also introduces disruption, preventing laminar flow. Removing the thermostat contributes to a column of water (laminar) where the same area of the column remains in contact with the metal surface.

When you gutted your thermostat, it wasn't the body-shell restricting flow that reduced your engine's temperature, it was the turbulence which the shell continute to introduce.
Laminar flow in a radiator or engine is more efficient at transferring heat than turbulence, because there is more liquid contact to transferring surfaces.

You said… It's not logical that water remaining longer in the radiator will cool the engine better. Why?”… Flow rate is always used in BTU transfer calculations…. Easy example would be hot water heater in your house…. If flow rate didn’t matter… you would not need a tank… just put heating element in pipe and you would always have hot water.

You said….”Also, consider high performance, heavy-duty water pumps. Their benefit is moving more water to increase the cooling system's capability”…..high performance mechanical pumps used in high RPM engines mostly have smaller impellers… to eliminate cavitations at high PRM and limit horsepower draw…. Consequently flow is not increased significantly….. Volume(radiator size) and air flow(thru the radiator) will increase the cooling system's capability… not speed of water through system.

As I have said before I agree with almost 100 % of what you have said …. These are things that fall in the almost category…. Well… now that I have side tracked this thread from oil and since I write so poorly…. I’ll just go back to my popcorn
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:45 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Laminar flow in a radiator or engine is more efficient at transferring heat than turbulence, because there is more liquid contact to transferring surfaces.
Agitating the liquid only mixes the liquid so it isn't a solid stream (the same molecules flowing longer across the conducting surface). It more evenly exchanges the heat of all the cooling liquid, not merely the liquid flowing undisturbed across the exchanging surface.

A quick google search produces quite a few articles describing the ill effect of laminar flow in an engine's cooling system. For example:

Quote:
If you remove the thermostat and run without it, it removes the "turnover" or turbulence (non-laminar flow) from the entrance to the radiator and will reduce the efficiency of the radiator. This turnover or turbulence is what makes sure that every molecule of water gets heated as evenly and fully as possible making for the best heat sponge. A good analogy is jumping in a lake and finding the surface water is warm to the touch, but a few feet down at your feet the water feels significantly cooler. This very same thing will happen in your cooling system if left to just laminar (smooth) flow and degrades the systems ability to carry and dissipate heat.
-- Top Ten Cooling Suggestions For Your Rod: Streetrod Stuff
If you have something describing how laminar flow is good, I'd like to see it.

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You said… It's not logical that water remaining longer in the radiator will cool the engine better. Why?”… Flow rate is always used in BTU transfer calculations…. Easy example would be hot water heater in your house…. If flow rate didn’t matter… you would not need a tank… just put heating element in pipe and you would always have hot water.
There seems to be a tendency in this discussion to compare open systems to closed. The water in my house goes down the drain, it doesn't feed back to the heating element. (This is similar to Duro's analogy of holding a single finger to a rangetop's heating element once, for a split second, as opposed to tapping all five fingers in succession, repeating infinitely until wincing commences.).

Your analogy not only eliminates the closed loop, but it also reverses the argument, implying that I believe the engine will reach 180F without a thermostat. Or, that we're trying to maintain on-demand 75F water to the engine block, as opposed to simply removing as much heat as possible (while maintaining 180F).

Using your analogy, if the goal is to reduce the heat of the heating element, moving more water past it will do a better job than letting it sit longer.

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high performance mechanical pumps used in high RPM engines mostly have smaller impellers… to eliminate cavitations at high PRM and limit horsepower draw…. Consequently flow is not increased significantly….. Volume(radiator size) and air flow(thru the radiator) will increase the cooling system's capability… not speed of water through system.
That may be one of the benefits of heavy duty water pumps. But, in more typical street applications they are recommended because they move more water, and therefore increase the engine's cooling capability. See the topic in the article I linked above.
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Old 01-26-2013, 01:47 PM   #35 (permalink)
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OK… az2008… to shorten this conversation…. I will simply say you have taught me something…. I wish I had discovered this years ago…. Instead of adding bigger and better radiators… I could have saved a lot of money by simply putting smaller pulley on water pump and running water through system faster…. Maybe even the NASCAR guys could benefit from this also…. They spend far too much money on larger and more efficient radiators.
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Old 01-26-2013, 05:15 PM   #36 (permalink)
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They spend far too much money on larger and more efficient radiators.
Sarcasm noted. I agree that, like any other component in a cooling system, the radiator can be the limiting factor (weak link). There is an optimal flow of water for a given size radiator. Increasing the flow results in a diminishing return.

Racing applications are obsessed with squeezing every HP out of an engine for 5-10 seconds. They may invest in more efficient radiators so they can run their water pump slower, spending less power turning a pulley than carrying a larger amount of water.
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Old 01-26-2013, 06:58 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Sarcasm noted. I agree that, like any other component in a cooling system, the radiator can be the limiting factor (weak link). There is an optimal flow of water for a given size radiator. Increasing the flow results in a diminishing return.

Racing applications are obsessed with squeezing every HP out of an engine for 5-10 seconds. They may invest in more efficient radiators so they can run their water pump slower, spending less power turning a pulley than carrying a larger amount of water.
Your second sentence is exactly what I was trying to convey…. But with poor communication skills was unable to put as simply as you…. I also assumed that was what Duro5341 meant with his statement…. I was also beginning to realize our difference of opinion was because of my lack of communication skills…. But since I am equally poor with keyboard input…. One finger… I just figured it was easier to submit.

Your comment about racing application is right on target… actually most now run electric pumps to maintain optimum flow rate regardless of RPMs, while reducing horsepower demand even further.

Now that I have reviled all my faults…. I’ll return to what I do best…. Reading the threads…. and eating popcorn when they get testy with interesting topics.

OK… Since I am coming clean… I don’t eat that much popcorn.
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Old 01-26-2013, 08:55 PM   #38 (permalink)
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This car loves Group IV oils (i.e. Mobil 1, Castrol Edge w/ Titanium (gold bottle), Kendall w/ Titanium). High quality Group III, such as Quaker State Ultimate Durability, Castrol Edge syntec (black bottle), etc. are also great for this car.
I hate to break your bubble but Mobil 1 Synthetic is actually a group III base oil, they reformulated after they lost their lawsuit against castrol to make it more cost effective (cheapened it up). However Mobil 1 Extended Performance is said to still be a Group IV.

In North America the word "Synthetic" is only a marketing term and has no real bearing on the product. In Europe to use the term "synthetic" you need to be a Group IV or higher, this is law

I personally would rather the European law be used here aswell, because it would inform the customer even further to what they are using in their engines. Those who care about their engines like me (almost an obsession) will search out the oil and it's formulations before using it, I will only use the best of the best in mine, thus why I have switched to synthetic Ester oil formulations.

Just my 2 cents
Duro
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Old 01-28-2013, 02:47 PM   #39 (permalink)
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I hate to break your bubble but Mobil 1 Synthetic is actually a group III base oil, they reformulated after they lost their lawsuit against castrol to make it more cost effective (cheapened it up). However Mobil 1 Extended Performance is said to still be a Group IV.

In North America the word "Synthetic" is only a marketing term and has no real bearing on the product. In Europe to use the term "synthetic" you need to be a Group IV or higher, this is law

I personally would rather the European law be used here aswell, because it would inform the customer even further to what they are using in their engines. Those who care about their engines like me (almost an obsession) will search out the oil and it's formulations before using it, I will only use the best of the best in mine, thus why I have switched to synthetic Ester oil formulations.

Just my 2 cents
Duro
Duro, I understand group III is not 100% synthetic like group IV. But is there a possibility that this might be like the inconsistent myth “if a little is good, a lot must be much better”? I understand oil flow, pressure, viscosities for most part. I also understand that polymers in synthetic oil does not break down like additives in dino oil and that synthetics flow better at startup temperatures.

But I am not yet convinced that complete Ester base is better than some mixture such as group III oils.
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:02 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Duro5341 View Post
I hate to break your bubble but Mobil 1 Synthetic is actually a group III base oil, they reformulated after they lost their lawsuit against castrol to make it more cost effective (cheapened it up). However Mobil 1 Extended Performance is said to still be a Group IV.

In North America the word "Synthetic" is only a marketing term and has no real bearing on the product. In Europe to use the term "synthetic" you need to be a Group IV or higher, this is law

I personally would rather the European law be used here aswell, because it would inform the customer even further to what they are using in their engines. Those who care about their engines like me (almost an obsession) will search out the oil and it's formulations before using it, I will only use the best of the best in mine, thus why I have switched to synthetic Ester oil formulations.

Just my 2 cents
Duro

I see. I knew there were rumors and many die-hard m1 users (not me) that said m1 was not G-III and I couldn't find anything to prove it.
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